EU Referendum Vote - Poll

quarky

vasselmeyer said:

I thought...who wants us to leave? Then I thought...Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Rupert Murdoch and Boris Johnson. I then completed my postal vote accordingly.

I thought.. who wants us to stay? Cameron, Blair, Brown, Major, and Corbyn.

Then decided to make up my mind on the fundamentals, rather than an argument from authority.

Fortheloveofguitar

quarky;1088303" said:

vasselmeyer said:

I thought...who wants us to leave? Then I thought...Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Rupert Murdoch and Boris Johnson. I then completed my postal vote accordingly.





I thought.. who wants us to stay? Cameron, Blair, Brown, Major, and Corbyn.

Then decided to make up my mind on the fundamentals, rather than an argument from authority.

Cameron: Arguably the weakest PM we've had. Waster!

Blair: The war criminal with blood on his hands

Brown: Mr 'British jobs for British people'

Corbyn: A complete sell out


Give me Farage and Boris any day of the week.

Emp_Fab

How are you guys grabbing the poll image ?  I wanted to post the latest state but it's not actually an image on the page.

littlegreenman

Fortheloveofguitar said:

quarky;1088303" said:

vasselmeyer said:

I thought...who wants us to leave? Then I thought...Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Rupert Murdoch and Boris Johnson. I then completed my postal vote accordingly.





I thought.. who wants us to stay? Cameron, Blair, Brown, Major, and Corbyn.

Then decided to make up my mind on the fundamentals, rather than an argument from authority.

Cameron: Arguably the weakest PM we've had. Waster!

Blair: The war criminal with blood on his hands

Brown: Mr 'British jobs for British people'

Corbyn: A complete sell out


Give me Farage and Boris any day of the week.

So you've explained why, in very simple terms, you distrust the Remain supporters, albeit in headlines.

What specifically (in headline terms if you like) have Farage and Boris countered the Remain claims with specifically as genuinely viable alternatives?

For the sake of avoiding the usual propaganda, "immigration" is off the table. I'm still floating and would like something more concrete if they are to change my mind from edging towards voting remain.

Ending 2016 with Trump in charge of the USA, Boris in No.10 and us out of Europe doesn't strike me as any kind of win, more like a Doomsday scenario.

Emp_Fab

The EU is run by unelected officials.  Remaining in the EU means we are obliged to comply with a lot of legislation that originates from that organisation, run by unelected officials.  You have no say in who they are or what they decide.  That's not democratic.

Fortheloveofguitar

Emp_Fab;1088368" said:

The EU is run by Germany.  Remaining in the EU means we are obliged to comply with a lot of legislation that originates from Germany , run by unelected Germans.  You have no say in who they are or what they decide.  That's not democratic.

FTFY

Garthy

Quote of the fucking century for me:

. If 'Brexit' needed a slogan, they should have used that.

ICBM

Garthy said:

Quote of the fucking century for me:

"I don't want to be a star on somebody else's flag". If 'Brexit' needed a slogan, they should have used that.

12th star or 51st?

I assume whoever wrote that meant the latter, since the number of stars on the EU flag doesn't represent the states, but the number on the US flag does.

Garthy

ICBM said:

Garthy said:

Quote of the fucking century for me:

"I don't want to be a star on somebody else's flag". If 'Brexit' needed a slogan, they should have used that.

12th star or 51st?

I assume whoever wrote that meant the latter, since the number of stars on the EU flag doesn't represent the states, but the number on the US flag does.

It was going to, but funnily enough 'Europe' could not reach an agreement on the number of stars. The author made their point succinctly.

ICBM

Garthy said:

It was going to, but funnily enough 'Europe' could not reach an agreement on the number of stars. The author made their point succinctly.

But incorrectly. A snappy number-based slogan from the Leave campaign that's factually wrong, what a surprise!

(To go with the long-winded ones from the Remain campaign that are wrong…)

Garthy

ICBM said:

Garthy said:

It was going to, but funnily enough 'Europe' could not reach an agreement on the number of stars. The author made their point succinctly.

But incorrectly. A snappy number-based slogan from the Leave campaign that's factually wrong, what a surprise!

(To go with the long-winded ones from the Remain campaign that are wrong…)

Many soundbites can be deconstructed by pedantic twats.

seany65

Why are so many inferring that a successful Vote 'Out' automatically puts BoJo in charge?

If the Vote was Out, I suppose there would be a leadership challenge, but would that mean it has to be BoJo? Don't forget, there could be more tory 'Ins' than 'Outs' and that could mean the next PM ain't BoJo.

Annoyingly, if everyone who can vote does, and the majority is 100% 'Out', we'll still have to have a second vote in 2 years time after the negotiation period to confirm our decision.

Equally annoyingly, if everyone who can vote does, and the majority is 50.000001% 'In', we never get another vote.
This latter line is what cameron said, although I don't think he used any numbers.

Yesterday, I noticed that on the cover of the Times, it mentions that moves were being started to create a single European army. Considering that the EU says it wants 'Ever greater union', I don't see how this unified army cannot come about. Where else can 'ever greater union' end but in a single European 'country'? So it would need a single military, a single Govt., a single legal system etc. etc.

But you watch the ridicule by the EU supporters when anyone mentions a coming single European army.

Anyway, I don't hold out much hope of a Brexit, the jocks'll keep us in. Remember they wanted 'Independance' from England, but actually wanted to immediately throw that Independance away by joining the EU. If they succeeded in doing both, they would've had to give up the Pound (which the made such a fuss about keeping) and take the Euro instead and give much of the control of their economy to the European central bank (and Germany?).

Remember all that whinging the jocks did about England and Wales making decisions that affect the jocks without them wanting those decisions? Well They'll be getting their revenge soon. If it turns out that the Jock vote keeps us in, I'm not sure all the Outies will be quite so keen on buying relatives they don't like boxes of scottish shortbread for Xmas.

Sambostar

4 people vs 3 people...are you sure this isn't an official YouGov government run poll?

eSully

An update on the Fretboard straw poll

eSully

I'm one of the 8 undecided. If I'm honest I'm surprised only 10% of the 80 votes in our poll are undecided. I don't see this as black and white at all. I see a lot of merit in both sides of the argument and I don't see the personalities fronting either campaign as a reason not to vote for that side. I'd rather deal with what is actually being put forward so from that front I've tried to educate myself, I watched the Brexit video that someone posted on another thread (I even lasted past that embarrassing umbrella company analogy section   ) - I've watched pro-remain videos from the likes of Owen Jones and read as many articles as I could from both sides. I've been lurking in the other threads, observing the points made by posters like @fretwired and @icbm ... and I'm still stumped as to how to vote.

So here's where I stand right now (and I'm open to having my mind changed), I don't agree with ever closer union or the power of the European commision, I've never believed a one size fits all approach works for an area as diverse as the eurozone. Don't want to join the Euro. I can see the benefits to small businesses if a certain amount of de-regulation allows them to become more competitive. I do believe that the UK can very successfully go it alone in the global economy although I would expect a period of recession after a leave vote. I also think some of the scare mongering from the remain campaign is utter shit, as if we'll suddenly tear up the human rights act, boot out every non-british academic or worker from the Eu, and suddenly all trade with the Eu will stop dead, what utter tosh, surely even they don't believe some of the crap they're coming out with. 

So going on that I probably I sound like I'm voting leave but actually I'm veering slightly towards remain for a few reasons. For one, I agree with Yanis Varoufakis, we should look to reform and improve from within. I think there are encouraging signs across the Eurozone of the people taking control, I hope this continues, the protests against TTIP would be an example of this, I think if this movement flourishes and continues and we hold the EU and particularly the commision more accountable then the EU can work better for the people. My best friend runs an ecology company and he's very worried about what will happen if we leave the EU, he reckons he's already seeing the damage from an Environmental point of view the Tories are wrecking and that could get a lot worse without the EU to reign back excessive enviromental deregulation. Lastly, I have no confidence in the political leadership we have right now, and I don't just mean the Tories, Cameron and Gideon might be a pile of shite but the ones looking to replace them aren't much better and then we get onto the other parties, Corbyn, Fallon, Farage, that dope from the green party. I don't see strong leadership there at all and I think we'd need extremely strong leadership, particularly in the first few years, if leaving the EU was to be a success. I think we'd have to fight tooth and nail to keep reasonably favourable terms of trade with the EU and the French/Germans will be vindictive.

There's probably massive holes in my argument but I'm sure someone will point them out  

TheBigDipper

I'm going to vote Remain.  I know the EU is imperfect,but the British thing to do is actually to stay and reform it from within rather than pull up the drawbridge and run away. 

Too many of our politicians have used the EU as a way of sloping their shoulders when something isn't right and it's their responsibility to fix it. "Can't, mate", they say, "EU". That's not good enough. 

p90fool

RandallFlagg;1088050" said:

Out. People are thinking to deep on this

Really? I think the vast majority on both sides are seriously under thinking this. It's a hugely complex global economic issue, but all we're left with is two camps, Scared of Change and Closet Racist.

Hardly anyone in the general population is qualified to make any kind of informed decision on this.

Axe_meister

Referendums are really the worst way to make a decision as it is generally emotion that drives the decision.
At least with normal elections policies dominate the discussion.
What proportion of the population is going to read through the whole European manifesto, have the Brexit campaign put forward an alternative stay in manifesto.
If we pull out the political bun fight of what to do next will go on for years.
Suddenly Europe will be without a major contributor so another bum fight will ensue in the Europe. Economies will suffer on both sides of the divide the result will not be short term it will drag on for years as everything rebalances. Other economies will take advantage.
The more I think about it I'm moving towards staying in buddying up with similar countries to ours and fight for European reform.

karltone

I don't think there is a possibility to reform the EU. The EU has been on a road which was always the same road virtually since its inception, it may of had a few minor diversions, but its still on the same road. The choice is whether you want to go to the that destination or to change path and go in a different direction. 

Drew_TNBD

karltone said:

I don't think there is a possibility to reform the EU. The EU has been on a road which was always the same road virtually since its inception, it may of had a few minor diversions, but its still on the same road. The choice is whether you want to go to the that destination or to change path and go in a different direction. 

This is kinda where my head is at too.

And fundamentally, the arguments all flying around are so impenetrable to me, that all I have are the raw principles... and the EU is not a democratic institution, therefore I am swayed by the Leave camp for that reason alone.