A black Henry VIII

quarky

Just read this. In a similar vein, let's say there was a new production that feature Henry VIII. Not necessarily a Doctor Who episode, but even a huge movie.

Should it matter if the actor playing Henry VIII is thin? Has black hair? Is black? Is chinese? Is a woman?

Fretwired

quarky said:

Should it matter if the actor playing Henry VIII is thin? Has black hair? Is black? Is chinese? Is a woman?

If it's a play then it shouldn't matter at all - it's called artistic licence. The recent Hollow Crown on the BBC had a black actor playing the Queen of England - she was excellent in the role.

Not so sure when you come to historical films which I think should be more accurate.

Phil_aka_Pip

Yes. We have a pretty good idea of what Henry VIII looked like, and we know he wasn't female, black, chinese, or even thin (in his later years). Depicting him as something he wasn't for political correctness or equality reasons is idiotic.

Hertz32

It would be historically accurate to have a fat white bloke do it, but directors know PC is in right now so will cast a black disabled lesbian as Henry VIII if it would get the views

octatonic

My instinct is to say there should be more diversity in acting.

Some roles would be significantly changed if the race/gender/sexual orientation of the character was to change, however.

For example- a film with a gay male James Bond would be pretty different from all of the other Bonds.

Is this inherently a problem?

Not in itself.

I have a big problem with quotas though- writing and producing art that has to adhere to a prescribed diversity formula seems to have it ass-backwards.

It is like buying a Ferrari to become wealthy- it doesn't work that way.

If there is a valid artistic or production reason to have an actor be a certain race/gender/orientation then go for it.

Otherwise the focus becomes 'oooh, look a Chinese Nelson Mandela' or 'Oh wow, a transgendered Queen Elizabeth' and the narrative sometimes becomes disregarded.

It wouldn't bother me to have a black Doctor.

lloyd

Fretwired said:

quarky said:

Should it matter if the actor playing Henry VIII is thin? Has black hair? Is black? Is chinese? Is a woman?

If it's a play then it shouldn't matter at all - it's called artistic licence. The recent Hollow Crown on the BBC had a black actor playing the Queen of England - she was excellent in the role.

Not so sure when you come to historical films which I think should be more accurate.

Pretty much this.

ICBM

The Doctor can easily be black, because he is a fictional character who changes form every now and again. Although I don't think he should be a woman - not because I'm sexist but because I just don't think it would work well. I'm not at all convinced by 'Missy'.

Henry VIII is a historical character who wasn't black, or Chinese, or a woman.

I also find casting white actors as non-white characters wrong.

But it's not just down to skin colour - I never found the film Nixon believable because Anthony Hopkins looks so unlike Richard Nixon that it just isn't possible to suspend disbelief. Nor even Joaquin Phoenix as Johnny Cash even though he sang the songs himself.

Phil_aka_Pip

I would be happy with a black chinese or anything else James Bond. I could be happy with a Jane Bond.

I wouldn't mind a Shakepeare play set in, say Africa, where all the main actors are black, or at least not white.

But I wouldn't have a black Queen Elizabeth I because QE1 was white. For the same reason I wouldn't have a white, chinese or asian actor playing Nelson Mandela, I'd have a black actor.

Simples.

Fretwired

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I wouldn't mind a Shakepeare play set in, say Africa, where all the main actors are black, or at least not white.

That's been done a few times. Othello has been set in Africa with the roles reversed so Othello was white and everyone else was black. It worked very well. Other Shakespeare plays have been moved to Africa, modern times and the future.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I wouldn't mind a Shakepeare play set in, say Africa, where all the main actors are black, or at least not white.

That's been done a few times. Othello has been set in Africa with the roles reversed so Othello was white and everyone else was black. It worked very well. Other Shakespeare plays have been moved to Africa, modern times and the future.

I like Shakespeare transposed into different times and places, I think it usually works and shows how brilliant a writer he was - the themes are universal up to a point. At least for his non-historic plays, I'm not sure whether the 'King' series would work so well.

quarky

Shouldn't the best actor get the job though regardless of race?

Fretwired

quarky said:

Shouldn't the best actor get the job though regardless of race?

I think the only problem is when you're making a biopic .. Idris Elba would make a poor Winston Churchill in the same way Michael Caine would make a poor Nelson Mandela. There needs to be an element of realism and believability as both people existed in the modern age. 

Chalky

Lets have the Elephant Man played by George Clooney with no make up. The three hags in Macbeth played by Clarkson, May and Hammond. Godzilla played naked by Bonny Langford. All would detract from the intended emotional impact of the script.

Dame Maggie Smith as Nelson Mandela? Disrespectful and insulting or artistic licence?

Drew_TNBD

People get cast for the way they fit the role - everything from their acting, to their looks.

That means that in all likelyhood they explicit wanted a black dude to play the role.

I don't have any problem with it really - we want to try this new approach with this well known material

Fine, but if it's shit I will certainly voice that opinion. And you don't get to call me racist/sexist/homophobic etc, in response. Look at the reception to the new Ghostbusters movie. Everyone thinks from the trailier that it looks utterly SHIT. Nothing to do with them replacing the guys with some gals and hot ginger secretary with a young stud.

It just looks weak as fuck. The acting is bad, the CGI is bad, and the jokes are not funny.

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I wouldn't mind a Shakepeare play set in, say Africa, where all the main actors are black, or at least not white.

That's been done a few times. Othello has been set in Africa with the roles reversed so Othello was white and everyone else was black. It worked very well. Other Shakespeare plays have been moved to Africa, modern times and the future.

I like Shakespeare transposed into different times and places, I think it usually works and shows how brilliant a writer he was - the themes are universal up to a point. At least for his non-historic plays, I'm not sure whether the 'King' series would work so well.

Yeah agreed. That one MacBeth based on a Northern Council estate was pretty decent. Don't remember who did it.

Phil_aka_Pip

quarky said:

Shouldn't the best actor get the job though regardless of race?

Depends on the character. If the character were Chairman Mao I'd at least want an actor who could look like him. It would probably mean a male Chinese person

dtr

The best Taming of the Shrew I've seen was the all-female production with Janet McTeer as Petruchio at the Globe.  Watching a woman play (brilliantly) a testosterone-fuelled misogynist made the character funnier and more sympathetic.

If the actor is good enough, they'll make it work - that's the skill of acting.  It would be much harder for a black actor to convince as Henry VIII but I'd love to see someone good enough to do it!

fretmeister

The theatre has never really given a shit about race when it comes to casting.

Sex is a bit different as it might need a lot of primary relationships to be recast as well.

Lenny Henry's Othello was great. I didn't once think "hold a minute, that's a black geezer."

Even for Henry VIII as soon as we say "must be a fat white guy" then it's preventing actors of brilliant skill playing one of the most iconic characters of history purely on race. That can't be right.

The best Elvis I ever saw was a tiny Chinese bloke too.

Drew_TNBD

fretmeister said:

The theatre has never really given a shit about race when it comes to casting.

Sex is a bit different as it might need a lot of primary relationships to be recast as well.

Lenny Henry's Othello was great. I didn't once think "hold a minute, that's a black geezer."

Even for Henry VIII as soon as we say "must be a fat white guy" then it's preventing actors of brilliant skill playing one of the most iconic characters of history purely on race. That can't be right.

The best Elvis I ever saw was a tiny Chinese bloke too.

The best ever magician I've never seen is a big fat white guy too.

Fretwired

dtr said:

If the actor is good enough, they'll make it work - that's the skill of acting.  It would be much harder for a black actor to convince as Henry VIII but I'd love to see someone good enough to do it!

It could be done on stage .. that's the magic of theatre. I've seen plenty of Shakespearian productions with black actors taking the lead as English Kings ... Shakespeare can be updated as with the production of Henry V with Adrian Lester set around the time of the Iraq war.

quarky

I am not sure that theatre and film have to have different rules though. Unless you think that the average theatre goer is capable of a greater suspension of disbelief?