A black Henry VIII

dtr

Fretwired said:

dtr said:

If the actor is good enough, they'll make it work - that's the skill of acting.  It would be much harder for a black actor to convince as Henry VIII but I'd love to see someone good enough to do it!

It could be done on stage .. that's the magic of theatre. I've seen plenty of Shakespearian productions with black actors taking the lead as English Kings ... Shakespeare can be updated as with the production of Henry V with Adrian Lester set around the time of the Iraq war.

Certainly easier on stage as the nature of theatre includes a very conscious reliance on the skill of actors.  In film it would be fine in a more abstracted or experimental 'art-house' style.

It's only if we're talking about naturalist or realist film styles that it would cause a problem, but if the choice is made to direct a naturalistic style of film we'd expect the casting to conform to that.  If we're trying to make the case that naturalistic direction and expressionistic casting don't mix, well duh!

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

The theatre has never really given a shit about race when it comes to casting.

Sex is a bit different as it might need a lot of primary relationships to be recast as well.

Lenny Henry's Othello was great. I didn't once think "hold a minute, that's a black geezer."

Even for Henry VIII as soon as we say "must be a fat white guy" then it's preventing actors of brilliant skill playing one of the most iconic characters of history purely on race. That can't be right.

The best Elvis I ever saw was a tiny Chinese bloke too.

But Othello is supposed to be black ... :-)

earwighoney

When it comes to artistic license being applied to misrepresentation to the races of historical figures my favourite is the Palestinian Jew by the name of Jesus looking like a blonde haired blue eyed Swedish tennis player (Bjorn Borg). 

TheBlueWolf

For a fictional character, Dr Who for example, I couldn't care less if they cast black, white, Chinese, lesbian or whatever. Its a work of fiction anyway.

Henry VII should be played by a white dude IMHO as he was real and we have a fair idea what he looks like. To cast a black dude for instance seems like tokenism and box ticking to me

Sambostar

I saw a bloke today that I'd describe with the N word.  Arsehole stared at me like he was racially demented with sunglasses on in a beat up Celica.  This is what fucks me off about prejudice and the extreme left.  The guy was a black chav with no insurance who I should have hit around the gob with a tyre iron.  He is light years away from black people I know and like. It's like even some gingers must be bad eh.  It all really pisses me off because we'll all human and no one hold prejudice against someone who speaks up for themselves and is a decent human being.  But human is as human does.  I'm not fucking English by gene pool.  English are a bunch of inbred Spanish cunts.  Most of us aren't even English.  It's all to cock. Judge people by what they do, not by giving them special rights and privileges and overrepresentation and rewriting history.  Gingers have been underrepresented fro about 3000 years.  Fuck these leftist arseholes, I don't care either way, I'm not a Basque arsehole.  Fuck these wankers.

Look around, England is the Burma or Africa of Europe, there are that many different white people that to label everyone in this category or other is offensive to say the least.  We are not all the same.

octatonic

Sambostar said:

I saw a bloke today that I'd describe with the N word.

Northern?

Sambostar

Northerners have the culture wrap on us southerners.  No that would be a compliment.

octatonic

Sambostar said:

Northerners have the culture wrap on us southerners.  No that would be a compliment.

I consider myself northern.

Because you lot are all geographist.

earwighoney

Sambostar said:

I saw a bloke today that I'd describe with the N word.  Arsehole stared at me like he was racially demented with sunglasses on in a beat up Celica.  This is what fucks me off about prejudice and the extreme left.  The guy was a black chav with no insurance who I should have hit around the gob with a tyre iron.  He is light years away from black people I know and like. It's like even some gingers must be bad eh.  It all really pisses me off because we'll all human and no one hold prejudice against someone who speaks up for themselves and is a decent human being.  But human is as human does.  I'm not fucking English by gene pool.  English are a bunch of inbred Spanish cunts.  Most of us aren't even English.  It's all to cock. Judge people by what they do, not by giving them special rights and privileges and overrepresentation and rewriting history.  Gingers have been underrepresented fro about 3000 years.  Fuck these leftist arseholes, I don't care either way, I'm not a Basque arsehole.  Fuck these wankers.

Look around, England is the Burma or Africa of Europe, there are that many different white people that to label everyone in this category or other is offensive to say the least.  We are not all the same.

No comment. 

I take it you're an Eric Clapton fan? 

Sambostar

No I just think discrimination is ridiculous and if you are going to discriminate, then why not get down to the DNA nitty gritty instead of basing all your rhetoric on the whim of what seems to be obvious and makes sense to your own deluded power hungry dictatorial regime, which you must inflict on everyone at all costs, but which actually makes no sense what so ever, becaiuse you are too simple to see the world for what it is beyond your pigeonholed retard vision.

Fretwired

earwighoney said:

Sambostar said:

I saw a bloke today that I'd describe with the N word.  Arsehole stared at me like he was racially demented with sunglasses on in a beat up Celica.  This is what fucks me off about prejudice and the extreme left.  The guy was a black chav with no insurance who I should have hit around the gob with a tyre iron.  He is light years away from black people I know and like. It's like even some gingers must be bad eh.  It all really pisses me off because we'll all human and no one hold prejudice against someone who speaks up for themselves and is a decent human being.  But human is as human does.  I'm not fucking English by gene pool.  English are a bunch of inbred Spanish cunts.  Most of us aren't even English.  It's all to cock. Judge people by what they do, not by giving them special rights and privileges and overrepresentation and rewriting history.  Gingers have been underrepresented fro about 3000 years.  Fuck these leftist arseholes, I don't care either way, I'm not a Basque arsehole.  Fuck these wankers.

Look around, England is the Burma or Africa of Europe, there are that many different white people that to label everyone in this category or other is offensive to say the least.  We are not all the same.

No comment. 

I take it you're an Eric Clapton fan? 

I think Eric Clapton is a fan.

earwighoney

Sambostar said:

No I just think discrimination is ridiculous and if you are going to discriminate, then why not get down to the DNA nitty gritty instead of basing all your rhetoric on the whim of what seems to be obvious and makes sense to your own deluded power hungry dictatorial regime, which you must inflict on everyone at all costs, but which actually makes no sense what so ever, becaiuse you are too simple to see the world for what it is beyond your pigeonholed retard vision.

If you're getting down to DNA then that's what Fuhrer had in mind with his 'experiments' and there's no shame in agreeing with his policies. 

Eric Clapton though, admitting you like him - that's something to have some real shame about.   There's no way I'd ever call anyone an Eric Clapton fan.  No one deserves such an insult. 

earwighoney

Fretwired said:

earwighoney said:

Sambostar said:

I saw a bloke today that I'd describe with the N word.  Arsehole stared at me like he was racially demented with sunglasses on in a beat up Celica.  This is what fucks me off about prejudice and the extreme left.  The guy was a black chav with no insurance who I should have hit around the gob with a tyre iron.  He is light years away from black people I know and like. It's like even some gingers must be bad eh.  It all really pisses me off because we'll all human and no one hold prejudice against someone who speaks up for themselves and is a decent human being.  But human is as human does.  I'm not fucking English by gene pool.  English are a bunch of inbred Spanish cunts.  Most of us aren't even English.  It's all to cock. Judge people by what they do, not by giving them special rights and privileges and overrepresentation and rewriting history.  Gingers have been underrepresented fro about 3000 years.  Fuck these leftist arseholes, I don't care either way, I'm not a Basque arsehole.  Fuck these wankers.

Look around, England is the Burma or Africa of Europe, there are that many different white people that to label everyone in this category or other is offensive to say the least.  We are not all the same.

No comment. 

I take it you're an Eric Clapton fan? 

I think Eric Clapton is a fan.

He was on drugs (Calpol) at the time, it's acceptable. 

Sambostar

Exactly.  The Fuhrer was a National Socialist.  An extreme left winger, repulsed by the horror of war.

All human beings being the same, it make no odds or a great loss to the genepool if a few are persecuted for the salvation of national unity and assimilation.  The same game has been played in politics since, before and evermore.

earwighoney

Sambostar said:

Exactly.  The Fuhrer was a National Socialist.  An extreme left winger, repulsed by the horror of war.

More importantly his moustache looked like he fell asleep and someone stuck their finger in their anus then smeared some faeces under his nose. 

Same thing applies to Charlie Chaplin.  

mgaw

i went to see a Black and white minstrel show....they were all fucking white rascist bastards

WezV

Anyone watch Cloud Atlas. plenty of Gender and Race swapping in that film.... But it is part of the story.


I guess you have to decide what the essence of the character is and hope the actor can portray that well.

Does the essence of H8 boil down to him being white?

But you also have to consider the scale and scope of the production. Not every film containing a H8 character will be a super accurate historical reproduction. If its not aiming for that, does it really matter?

Chalky

WezV;1096786" said:

Anyone watch Cloud Atlas. plenty of Gender and Race swapping in that film.... But it is part of the story.


I guess you have to decide what the essence of the character is and hope the actor can portray that well.

Does the essence of H8 boil down to him being white?

No, but he craved attention and influence, created a false air of extreme masculinity, and was underneath it all rather an insecure and inconsistent man given to outbursts of petulance. He was a pillow personality - bore the impression of those with whom he spent most time.

Being played by say, a strong black dude, is likely to camouflage those insecurities.

WezV

Hmm, that says more about your preconceptions than anything else. Hopefully the actor will be strong enough as an actor to overcome that.


Charlize Theron in Monster.... Is her real appearance a distraction to the role she is playing, or did the acting overcome it? Okay, bit of makeup help there, not suggesting they do that. But she was clearly a good choice even though you would not have thought she was a good fit for the role

Chalky

WezV;1096833" said:

Hmm, that says more about your preconceptions than anything else. Hopefully the actor will be strong enough as an actor to overcome that.


Charlize Theron in Monster.... Is her real appearance a distraction to the role she is playing, or did the acting overcome it? Okay, bit of makeup help there, not suggesting they do that. But she was clearly a good choice even though you would not have thought she was a good fit for the role

But that's what I meant by the phrase 'a strong black dude'. Think Idris Elba in The Wire - his physique, his bearing and gravitas exudes confident secure masculinity. Your average audience would find it hard to convert him into an historically accurate H8 because of preconceptions about his persona.

Audience suspension of disbelief begins with Casting. Some actors are chameleons. Character actors who easily and believably slip between key roles in disparate productions, film and tv. But many if not most actors are not like that. H8 is difficult precisely because you need a strong male lead portraying weaknesses not normally associated with those types of actors. Which is why we tend to do them better than Hollywood.