Did Corbyn intentionally not support Remain properly, or is he not very good at politics?

siremoon

He's right that the EU is a mixed bag and I'm sure many people on both sides of the argument would agree with that.  What he didn't understand or couldn't bring himself to accept was that in his position you can't adopt an analogue position in a binary argument. 

Fretwired

The people looking to remove Corbyn are idiots - its not the right time. The Tory Party is about to go into melt down and the government could fall. The Queen could therefore ask Corbyn if he could form a government .. on the present evidence that would be slim. She may have to ask Salmond ... :-)

ICBM

siremoon said: 

He's right that the EU is a mixed bag and I'm sure many people on both sides of the argument would agree with that.  What he didn't understand or couldn't bring himself to accept was that in his position you can't adopt an analogue position in a binary argument.

You put that much better in less words than I did .

Fretwired said:

The people looking to remove Corbyn are idiots - its not the right time. The Tory Party is about to go into melt down and the government could fall. The Queen could therefore ask Corbyn if he could form a government .. on the present evidence that would be slim. She may have to ask Salmond ... :-)

She could ask any member of parliament she thinks could command a majority of the House. That won't be Corbyn… even if he's still leader of the opposition tomorrow.

Churchill was only a fairly minor figure in 1940.

chillidoggy

How can you say Corbyn isn't a 'career politician'? He's been a politician since the early 70's, and has never had a proper job in his entire life*.

*Directly plagiarised from Farage's latest rant at the EU mandarins.

ICBM

chillidoggy said:

How can you say Corbyn isn't a 'career politician'? He's been a politician since the early 70's, and has never had a proper job in his entire life*.

Because he's never treated it as a career in the sense of a path for advancement - just as exactly... a job. I'm sure he never foresaw leading the party, at least not at any time after Kinnock became leader and the party moved away from him politically. He seems to have almost casually allowed himself to be put forward last year, and I'm sure never thought he would win until the campaign got going.

He's certainly never tried to ingratiate himself with any of the former leaders, never tried to climb the party ladder, never held even the most junior office. That may be one of the reasons it's all going wrong - he just doesn't know how all that works.

UnclePsychosis

I have a friend/acquaintance who works for a major British newspaper as one of their Northern correspondents. Spends a lot of time talking politics with the general public. Hasn't once met a ukip voter or Conservative voter who is tempted to move to (or back to) Labour because of Corbyn.

He's unelectable. Being able to win is the number one priority for any major party. He needs to go.

Snap

Corbyn was voted in by a few hundred thousand party members. You can't say he's popular with people who voted labour at all. How many voted Labour at last election? 9 1/2 million or so?

Corbyn got (about) 60% of the vote out of of about 550,000 members - so about 330,000 votes.

Very different measures.

He's stuffed. What he needs now is some humility and perspective and to realise that he is damaging his party regardless of what the membership thinks. Popularity with the party members, the public and the PLP are all different things.

The Labour Party at the moment is becoming more and more like Animal Farm by the day.

Bogwhoppit

ICBM said:

- he just doesn't know how all that works.

To be fair, none of them know how it works, they make it up as they go along

Evilmags

Corbyn got EE at A level at a well to do Grammer school. He is not very bright.

Bogwhoppit

Evilmags said:

Corbyn got EE at A level at a well to do Grammer school. He is not very bright.

That's equivalent to an A* these days

Evilmags

Cameron got straight As though. 

Heartfeltdawn

UnclePsychosis said:

I have a friend/acquaintance who works for a major British newspaper as one of their Northern correspondents. Spends a lot of time talking politics with the general public. Hasn't once met a ukip voter or Conservative voter who is tempted to move to (or back to) Labour because of Corbyn.

He's unelectable. Being able to win is the number one priority for any major party. He needs to go.

I don't think it's a case of him being unelectable. It's that the Labour party have no idea what to do in order to be electable. Look at the list of supporters:

-Unions and members, went for Remain.

-Trad Labour places like Hartlepool, never voted a Tory into Parliament, went Leave. 

-The city votes (London, Liverpool, Manchetser, Bristol etc - Labour dominate the mayoral lists). Remain. 

-The SJW crowd - Remainers. 

How do you construct a party that adequately pleases all four of those groups? 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

UnclePsychosis said:

I have a friend/acquaintance who works for a major British newspaper as one of their Northern correspondents. Spends a lot of time talking politics with the general public. Hasn't once met a ukip voter or Conservative voter who is tempted to move to (or back to) Labour because of Corbyn.

He's unelectable. Being able to win is the number one priority for any major party. He needs to go.

I don't think it's a case of him being unelectable. It's that the Labour party have no idea what to do in order to be electable. Look at the list of supporters:

-Unions and members, went for Remain.

-Trad Labour places like Hartlepool, never voted a Tory into Parliament, went Leave. 

-The city votes (London, Liverpool, Manchetser, Bristol etc - Labour dominate the mayoral lists). Remain. 

-The SJW crowd - Remainers. 

How do you construct a party that adequately pleases all four of those groups? 

It won't matter at a GE as the likes of Hartlepool will always vote Labour over Tory. Might be different if the Lib Dems find traction.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said: It won't matter at a GE as the likes of Hartlepool will always vote Labour over Tory. Might be different if the Lib Dems find traction.

I think it does. Those UKIP voters at the last election weren't all disatisfied Tories. There are people who went from Labour to UKIP on the immigration ticket. 

Hartlepool voyed overwhelmingly for Leave. How would they react to a Labour leader come the next election telling them that he is still very pro-EU? As more young voters come into the arena, they won't have the same Labour loyalties that their grandparents or parents had. Those young people won't have worked in a union workplace like their elders in shipyards like those owned by William Grey & Company. They won't have ever known the evils of Maggie et al. What those young kids hear about most is immigrants and how they're coming over in droves. 

So why would those young voters go Labour?  

It is my belief that Labour have to firmly decide who to back: the unions and the older traditional vote, or the more cosmopolitan and Tumblr vote. I don't think they can create a party that would suit both factions. 

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

Corbyn got EE at A level at a well to do Grammer school. He is not very bright.

Debate deleted After reading your thread about Spanish funerals, I won't go off on a big debate. You've had quite enough to deal with with all of that without quibbling on a point. Condolences on everything, not least being far better than the sons of the deceased. 

stickyfiddle

Heartfeltdawn said:

UnclePsychosis said:

I have a friend/acquaintance who works for a major British newspaper as one of their Northern correspondents. Spends a lot of time talking politics with the general public. Hasn't once met a ukip voter or Conservative voter who is tempted to move to (or back to) Labour because of Corbyn.

He's unelectable. Being able to win is the number one priority for any major party. He needs to go.

I don't think it's a case of him being unelectable. It's that the Labour party have no idea what to do in order to be electable. Look at the list of supporters:

-Unions and members, went for Remain.

-Trad Labour places like Hartlepool, never voted a Tory into Parliament, went Leave. 

-The city votes (London, Liverpool, Manchetser, Bristol etc - Labour dominate the mayoral lists). Remain. 

-The SJW crowd - Remainers. 

How do you construct a party that adequately pleases all four of those groups? 

You don't need to get all of those though. You need to get the majority of the floating voters. Those who weren't brought up to always vote for "us" rather than "them", middle class working people who generally are socially liberal but economically conservative. It's an EXTREMELY hard line to follow, and one the Lib Dems were actually doing very well at until they formed the coalition, which was their downfall. 

Nitefly

Vote of no confidence - backed by 176 to 44:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458

Surely he can't stay on?

*edit to include beeb link.

TTony

Nitefly said:

Vote of no confidence - backed by 176 to 44:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458

Surely he can't stay on?

*edit to include beeb link.

Recount, surely?

So, basically, it's him and his shadow cabinet against the rest of the elected MPs.

Fretwired

TTony said:

Nitefly said:

Vote of no confidence - backed by 176 to 44:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458

Surely he can't stay on?

*edit to include beeb link.

Recount, surely?

So, basically, it's him and his shadow cabinet against the rest of the elected MPs.

Not quite - the shadow education secretary resigned after less than 48 hours in the job ...

Heartfeltdawn

stickyfiddle said:

You don't need to get all of those though. You need to get the majority of the floating voters. Those who weren't brought up to always vote for "us" rather than "them", middle class working people who generally are socially liberal but economically conservative. It's an EXTREMELY hard line to follow, and one the Lib Dems were actually doing very well at until they formed the coalition, which was their downfall. 

I'm not saying you need all of them. It's a list of who does support them NOW. It was clear in 2015 that they'd lost some of that traditional backing. An election next year in the wake of the referendum may see them lose more backing from that sector. Trade Unions are declining in membership as well. If you're going to replace those voters from those two sectors with the cosmopolitan sector, then you will strengthen in cities where you are already strong and face possibly losing out in other areas and lowering your impact across the whole country. 

I wonder if the answer is a Labour party based around unions and traditional voters happy to go into coalition with a socially liberal/economically conservative group.