What exactly is Jeremy Corbyn's plan?

Heartfeltdawn

@Placidcasual79 By all means. And yes, huge SFA fan who will be enjoying them later in the year. It's a bit of a mindfuck to think that it's now over 20 years since I first saw them

The idea that Corbyn is more natural and guided by his own thoughts and policies than other politicians - well, compared to whom? I could make a similar point that those people who side with true far-right elements are doing exactly the same. I doubt Corbyn was born a socialist. It's an ideology he has come to believe in, no different to a fighter in Syria who now believes in the ISIS cause or a Trump supporter in America or a libertarian. Now I'd make for the case that the Cameron-Osborne axis passionately believed in their policies and values. The problem for both of them is that large numbers within their party didn't. Cameron put his job on the line and went full out with regard to his values over Europe. There are few politicians out there who aren't guided by their policies and values within this country. Compared to several other European countries, our lot aren't that bad. 

What I suspect you mean is that Corbyn somehow seems more principled in what he believes compared to a number of other politicians, less inclined to have an industry or financial hand up his arse. That much is true but there's also no doubt that he has been involved and is involved with some pretty dubious people. 

I understand why Corbyn has a fresh appeal. I've attended two rallies this year and I actually like how he speaks. His conference address was actually quite poor compared to both live events and I didn't find the 'take on the Tories' element to be anything other than lowest common denominator rabble rousing. He has now been in power for a year and I am still no closer to finding out what the core of his policy base is. 'Education for all', minimum wage of £10... how? Why? What? If? This is why I compare him to Trump in another thread on this forum. Both have gotten a message out with a dismissive snort at the usual media sources, both have used the online world well, but both are promising a lot of things without detailing how they will make these things happen. It strikes me as a curious reality that a lot of the younger generation stay away from religion because it's nothing more than faith-based belief with no evidence or grounding in reality yet there is a groundswell of politics, be it Corbyn or Sanders or Trump for that matter, essentially acting as preachers and offering up salvation with no evidence or detail as to how the ruddy hell it's going to happen. 

Now that final sentence in your last post on this thread:

I would suggest that this view of weak stems from old fashioned misogynistic concepts of what is strong.  

I actually haven't seen that much criticism from decent sources saying that he is a weak leader. Stubborn is his main quality.
The idea that people don't like him based on some inherent misogynistic elements... nah. It's fair to say this forum doesn't like him that much but that is not down to some redblooded notion that he's just not butch enough. After all, this is a forum where large quantities of members rightly applaud the abilities of the late Mercury and Bowie, both gentlemen who combined masculinity with something more exotic, shall we say. The idea that Corbyn is disliked because he isn't man enough just doesn't hold any sway with me. Now the use of 'misogynistic'... are you putting forward the notion that it's because he is a tad more feminised than other leaders? Again, I can't agree because one of the yardsticks for strong political leadership is her Iron Ladyness (sic). Indeed, I could flip the misogyny argument back: is some of the current Labour hatred for Thatcher coming from old fashioned misogyny? I suspect in some quarters it is. It's pertinent to remember that it's been the female front benchers who have been the ones to really publicly damn Corbyn. 

Placidcasual79

Heartfeltdawn said:

@Placidcasual79 By all means. And yes, huge SFA fan who will be enjoying them later in the year. It's a bit of a mindfuck to think that it's now over 20 years since I first saw them

The idea that Corbyn is more natural and guided by his own thoughts and policies than other politicians - well, compared to whom? I could make a similar point that those people who side with true far-right elements are doing exactly the same. I doubt Corbyn was born a socialist. It's an ideology he has come to believe in, no different to a fighter in Syria who now believes in the ISIS cause or a Trump supporter in America or a libertarian. Now I'd make for the case that the Cameron-Osborne axis passionately believed in their policies and values. The problem for both of them is that large numbers within their party didn't. Cameron put his job on the line and went full out with regard to his values over Europe. There are few politicians out there who aren't guided by their policies and values within this country. Compared to several other European countries, our lot aren't that bad. 

What I suspect you mean is that Corbyn somehow seems more principled in what he believes compared to a number of other politicians, less inclined to have an industry or financial hand up his arse. That much is true but there's also no doubt that he has been involved and is involved with some pretty dubious people. 

I understand why Corbyn has a fresh appeal. I've attended two rallies this year and I actually like how he speaks. His conference address was actually quite poor compared to both live events and I didn't find the 'take on the Tories' element to be anything other than lowest common denominator rabble rousing. He has now been in power for a year and I am still no closer to finding out what the core of his policy base is. 'Education for all', minimum wage of £10... how? Why? What? If? This is why I compare him to Trump in another thread on this forum. Both have gotten a message out with a dismissive snort at the usual media sources, both have used the online world well, but both are promising a lot of things without detailing how they will make these things happen. It strikes me as a curious reality that a lot of the younger generation stay away from religion because it's nothing more than faith-based belief with no evidence or grounding in reality yet there is a groundswell of politics, be it Corbyn or Sanders or Trump for that matter, essentially acting as preachers and offering up salvation with no evidence or detail as to how the ruddy hell it's going to happen. 

Now that final sentence in your last post on this thread:

I would suggest that this view of weak stems from old fashioned misogynistic concepts of what is strong.  

I actually haven't seen that much criticism from decent sources saying that he is a weak leader. Stubborn is his main quality.
The idea that people don't like him based on some inherent misogynistic elements... nah. It's fair to say this forum doesn't like him that much but that is not down to some redblooded notion that he's just not butch enough. After all, this is a forum where large quantities of members rightly applaud the abilities of the late Mercury and Bowie, both gentlemen who combined masculinity with something more exotic, shall we say. The idea that Corbyn is disliked because he isn't man enough just doesn't hold any sway with me. Now the use of 'misogynistic'... are you putting forward the notion that it's because he is a tad more feminised than other leaders? Again, I can't agree because one of the yardsticks for strong political leadership is her Iron Ladyness (sic). Indeed, I could flip the misogyny argument back: is some of the current Labour hatred for Thatcher coming from old fashioned misogyny? I suspect in some quarters it is. It's pertinent to remember that it's been the female front benchers who have been the ones to really publicly damn Corbyn. 

Where are you seeming them Heartfelt? Such an incredible band and soooo underrated. I've seen them many times - at Glastonbury in 98 with the tank was memorable. I also saw them the night Liverpool won the Champions league. Such a weird gig - the band, like most of the audience were torn between the music and the football! (the gig was in my home town Wrexham - half an hour from Liverpool). I hope this tour will lead to new music - though there has been no suggestion of that has there?

I think Corbyn is more guided by his own thoughts and polices than the majority of politicians I see on question time and the news etc (there are obviously some exceptions on this spectrum). I take your point about some of his associations. Dubious is definitely a reasonable description. I also acknowledge that some of his appeal is purely down to the fact that he is different to most career politicians and this, like Trump and Farage, has won him support as much as any of his policies. That in itself is a damming indictment of the disconnect between people and politics.

My point wasn't anything to do with other forum members perspective of him not being red-blooded enough. What I was trying to say was that criticising him for being weak because his views/position/values are commonly described as overly idealistic or fluffy is unfair. Taking a less pragmatic position is actually a tougher thing to do in many instances - perhaps I was overly stretching the point, but I was trying to say that its old fashioned and maybe misogynistic to consider someone weak because their thinking is idealistic, less centre right/neo liberal. I believe it takes a great deal more strength to swim against the populist tide.....

 

Drew_TNBD

Anyone using the word misogyny in a serious conversation needs to have their head looked at by some sort of voodoo priest-cum-Peter Suttcliffe character.

Drew_TNBD

Placidcasual79 said:

. I believe it takes a great deal more strength to swim against the populist tide.....

If you do it by raw numbers, it takes way more strength to swim against the globalist tide.

Heartfeltdawn

Placidcasual79 said: 

Where are you seeming them Heartfelt? Such an incredible band and soooo underrated. I've seen them many times - at Glastonbury in 98 with the tank was memorable. I also saw them the night Liverpool won the Champions league. Such a weird gig - the band, like most of the audience were torn between the music and the football! (the gig was in my home town Wrexham - half an hour from Liverpool). I hope this tour will lead to new music - though there has been no suggestion of that has there?

I think Corbyn is more guided by his own thoughts and polices than the majority of politicians I see on question time and the news etc (there are obviously some exceptions on this spectrum). I take your point about some of his associations. Dubious is definitely a reasonable description. I also acknowledge that some of his appeal is purely down to the fact that he is different to most career politicians and this, like Trump and Farage, has won him support as much as any of his policies. That in itself is a damming indictment of the disconnect between people and politics.

My point wasn't anything to do with other forum members perspective of him not being red-blooded enough. What I was trying to say was that criticising him for being weak because his views/position/values are commonly described as overly idealistic or fluffy is unfair. Taking a less pragmatic position is actually a tougher thing to do in many instances - perhaps I was overly stretching the point, but I was trying to say that its old fashioned and maybe misogynistic to consider someone weak because their thinking is idealistic, less centre right/neo liberal. I believe it takes a great deal more strength to swim against the populist tide.....

I'll be seeing them here in Bristol. 1994 was my first gig year and I've managed to see them here and in North America. Truly excellent band, not a duff album in their discography. 

I agree, there is a disconnect between people and politics. It does worry me when people appear to vote for individuals rather than policies. Hero worship is seldom a good thing. However Farage, Trump, and Corbyn all deserve some credit for showing that traditional media doesn't have the stranglehold that it used to. All three have demonstrated that you can get a long way with online media. 

I don't think he's weak because he's left wing. Caroline Lucas operates further left than he does and I consider her an excellent MP, someone who does put in the research and crucially someone who is not afraid to say when she doesn't know something, a rare trait amongst Parliamentarians. I consider him weak because of his own stubborn belief in one system and his lack of detail when describing his policies (and it is madness to have gone through a year of him as leader and for there to still be so little of his agenda that is quite unknown). 

ToneControl

ahh
Now  JC will fix the anti-semitism issue in the Labour party
by firing the  Jewish vice-chair of Momentum.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37513813

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

ahh
Now  JC will fix the anti-semitism issue in the Labour party
by firing the  Jewish vice-chair of Momentum.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37513813

Which is what commentators from the like of the Jewish Chronicle, the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism, and the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust have wanted. So for once it's not simply an idiot move by Corbyn. 

http://order-order.com/2016/09/29/jewish-groups-condemn-jackie-walker-cover/

Evilmags

Not an easy genie to put back in the bottle once it's been let out. How the opposite fails to capitalise on the antisemitism issue is beyond me. 

Placidcasual79

Drew_TNBD said:

Anyone using the word misogyny in a serious conversation needs to have their head looked at by some sort of voodoo priest-cum-Peter Suttcliffe character.

Wow thanks Drew. I am feeling the love.

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

Not an easy genie to put back in the bottle once it's been let out. How the opposite fails to capitalise on the antisemitism issue is beyond me. 

Perhaps because the opposition track record with the Muslim faith means they'd be open to a few charges. The Conservatives are far better keeping quiet during these problems for Labour and letting the newspapers do the talking for them. 

Heartfeltdawn

Placidcasual79 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Anyone using the word misogyny in a serious conversation needs to have their head looked at by some sort of voodoo priest-cum-Peter Suttcliffe character.

Wow thanks Drew. I am feeling the love.

Just don't drink too much of that voodoo priest cum. It's potent stuff. 

Drew_TNBD

 

Chalky

@Placidcasual79 says "I think Corbyn is more guided by his own thoughts and policies than the majority of politicians I see on question time and the news etc".

Is that a good thing?

Its a common comment about JC, but I don't see the inherent benefit of it in a PM.

Heartfeltdawn

Party leadership in turmoil, leadership in crisis, party divided...

And it's not actually Labour. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37558485

Nitefly

Bloody hell, that didn't last long!

axisus

It pretty funny, the Tories had the biggest overturning of the applecart, and yet they were business as usual incredibly quickly. The lib dems are still a lame duck since the last election, UKIP a headless chicken and labour a rabid dog running in circles trying to chew its own arse off. 

57Deluxe

http://i65.tinypic.com/1556hbt.jpg

Heartfeltdawn

axisus said:

It pretty funny, the Tories had the biggest overturning of the applecart, and yet they were business as usual incredibly quickly. The lib dems are still a lame duck since the last election, UKIP a headless chicken and labour a rabid dog running in circles trying to chew its own arse off. 

I don't think they did. Cameron had already said he wouldn't stand in 2020 so the lines were predrawn. The Remain defeat was always going to have one outcome: no more DC. Rather than a prolonged struggle to hold onto his leadership with votes of no confidence and the like, he stood down and saved the party from that public display. May's clearly the compromise candidate for both sides of the Conservative party and has come out thus far from the conference season looking alright. 

With Labour, their applecart was far bigger because they had far more argumentative factions within their ranks. They'd bloody love for just two divisions, pro and anti-Europe, to be at loggerheads like the Tories. Instead for Labour it's pro and anti-Europe, metropolitan versus industrial versus coastal Labour heartlands, Blairites versus Corbynites, union versus non-union... there are a lot more pieces in the Labour camp that aren't clicking right now than the Tories had to sort out. 

Heartfeltdawn

And he's back again!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561065

And offered up a slap for Neil Hamilton in the process. 

scrumhalf

Given that he's reshuffled Dianne Abbot as Shadow Home Secretary I can only assume that his plan is to utterly fuck the Labour Party.