What exactly is Jeremy Corbyn's plan?

ICBM

A fair proportion of the public actually support many of Corbyn's ideas and policies if they're presented in isolation.

The problem is that he's an uncharismatic, unlikable man, who's also a poor leader and manager of his party, and he's too easy to paint as a loony-lefty by sections of the media.

He and his supporters think that the first will trump the second at election time - but they're probably living in the past... or are they? We don't know yet. I've now come to the conclusion that now we don't seem to have an alternative, we're going to have to find out.

monquixote

Well I guess we will have to wait for him to get obliterated in 2020 then.

For the first time in my life I can see myself declining to vote in the next election. I just wish they had a "think all of the above are shit" box on the form. 

ToneControl

monquixote said:

Well I guess we will have to wait for him to get obliterated in 2020 then.

For the first time in my life I can see myself declining to vote in the next election. I just wish they had a "think all of the above are shit" box on the form. 

my current plan is to write "Corbyn is an idiot" on my ballot paper

axisus

I have no clue who to vote for next gen election. I used to vote Labour, but not any more. To be honest I don't fancy any parties, although now that Cameron and Osbourne are gone the Tories don't seem quite so poisonous. Could I actually vote Tory????? Maybe if they do a good job for the next few years. 

Philly_Q

I will definitely vote because I always do, but I don't know who for.  

My local MP is Chuka Umunna who - according to the Mail on Sunday -  is being "pushed by allies to stand as the only Labour leadership hopeful with a realistic chance of winning in 2020".  Hmmm.  We'll see about that.

Drew_TNBD

He wont get my vote.

Norwegian_Blue

axisus said:

I have no clue who to vote for next gen election. I used to vote Labour, but not any more. To be honest I don't fancy any parties, although now that Cameron and Osbourne are gone the Tories don't seem quite so poisonous. Could I actually vote Tory????? Maybe if they do a good job for the next few years. 

The Poison has become quieter and sneakier...

Placidcasual79

ICBM said:

The problem is that he's an uncharismatic, unlikable man, who's also a poor leader and manager of his party, and he's too easy to paint as a loony-lefty by sections of the media.

Wow - I totally don't see that. Corbyn has more charisma than almost any politician I can recently recall. Its refreshing to see a politician whose every move and utterance isn't designed by a committee of PR guru's. He appears to be, by the standards set by most populist politicians, almost human!

I don't agree that he has consigned Labour to perennial opposition or pressure group status or that he is somehow unelectable. He is a principled person and that will appeal to a new generation of apathetic voters fed on careerist politicians who are afraid to say anything that even approaches an opinion without first testing it out on a million pilot groups first. He doesn't engage in the shameful sound bite, sloganeering and bitchy arguing that we have come to accept as modern politics. Corbyn is electable because he is dignified, respectful and has a key ingredient missed by so many - integrity!  

I understand that he is unpopular with factions of the Labour party because they think he is unelectable - again this is because he isn't prepared to adopt in vogue policy.

The widely held perception that Corbyn is weak is also a misconception. I think people confuse weak with idealistic and dignified. In actual fact Corbyn is the opposite of weak. He has swam against the tide for the entirety of his political career, he doesn't fear the media and rarely engages in undignified slanging matches. Earlier in this thread someone suggested that Putin would see Corbyn as an easy target. I disagree - what is it about Corbyn that is weak? I would suggest that this view of weak stems from old fashioned misogynistic concepts of what is strong.  

axisus

I would genuinely fear for the future with a Corbyn led govt.

stickyfiddle

I agree that some of Corbyn's policies are potentially great. But a lot are awful.

I agree that his unwillingness to provide soundbite responses is a strength as a man, but it's a HUGE weakness in terms of actual getting a point across in the media-led world we currently live in (for better or worse). 

I agree that he is fantastically popular among a certain section of the populace, but that section does not appear to be anywhere near large enough to win an election. To everyone else, he's just not a credible leader. Orwell described Corbyn perfectly 80-odd years ago - the type of man who puts everyone else off socialism.

And there's a serious problem with anti-semitism in the Labour party, which is a massive issue he doesn't want to even talk about, apparently because it's too close to home.

My hope from all this is that the Labour party splits into 3:
- the proper-idiot Blaire faction can all fuck off with their pensions
- the credible, out-for-the-working-man section who want fair working conditions and common sense on the big issues can partner up with the four and a half Lib Dems and some likeminded Tories to form a credible Liberal party from scratch; and
- Corbyn and his mob can become the noisy third party - never going to win anything, but happy to rattle sabres and make the right noises when important issues are on the table.

I'm not sure about #1 there, but I can see 2 and 3 happening in the next year or so.

So far May is doing a good job - no u-turns so far, promising an evidence-based approach to decision making, and no bloody knee-jerk *anything*, but it'd be nice to get the above sorted in time that we don't waste the next election on May vs Corbyn as it's pretty obvious how that will play out.

Skipped

People who I respect told me that when Jeremy Corbyn said that he could never push the Nuclear Button......That was an indication that it is impossible for him to become PM (because he can not win the popular vote).
Now...that is interesting. Because what his Trident position told me, is that he does not intend to fight a General Election. He is a reasonably intelligent man. It is inconceivable (to me) that he revealed that particular position whilst also holding true ambition to be the Prime Minister.

I have seen posts on other forums suggesting that the Tories were popping Champagne Corks yesterday.
Do you open Champagne when you are shaking with sheer relief??
Yes - I think you probably do.
But surely their best bet is a snap Election?

If May is facing (for example) Hilary Benn in a 2020 General Election....what is the most likely outcome after 4 years of horrific Brexit complications?

If the current Police Investigations into 30+ Lib Dem Marginals show that the Tories did not legitimately win the 2015 GE, and if the reputation of the LibDems receives a huge boost as a result, what is the most likely outcome at the 2020 General Election?

If the public have time to get used to a deal between the SNP and the Labour Party (and thus diluting the impact of scare stories in the Tory press)......what is the most likely outcome at the 2020 General Election?

If the next Labour Leader is not Hilary Benn....If it is Chuka Umunna, and we have 2 years of PMQs dripping with astonishing personal abuse, heavy sarcasm, and brutal analysis of the Brexit team in the Govermnent...what is the most likely outcome at the 2020 General Election? The signs are that May is not able to deal with the Benign, no Personal Abuse policy of Jeremy Corbyn at PMQs. How will she cope with the next guy?

I don't think the Labour Party post Corbyn will get a majority at the 2020 General Election. I don't think they need a majority.
If May really is clever.....there will be an Election very soon.

paulads

I hope there is a general election called very soon. It'll be interesting to see if our current prime minister is "electable"

And the people will decide, rather than the fretboard.

ICBM

Skipped said:

If May really is clever.....there will be an Election very soon.

Only if Corbyn falls into the trap of allowing her to call it - which he has said he will. If so he's a fool because he will probably lose, and then we'll be five years from the next one rather than three and a half.

Evilmags

The longer may waits the bigger a majority she will get...

hywelg

I would distrust the motives of Theresa May if she called an election now. Probably away to weasel out of Brexit.

Besides she has said she will carry on to 2020 so if she changes her mind she can change her mind on Brexit. No thanks.

Chalky

Corbyn's only hope in 2020 is that the economy craps out and Brexit is a disaster. If the economy grows under May, he is screwed. If the economy grows AND May starts going anti-austerity and building infrastructure, then he will be forced further left and will have consigned Labour to the wilderness.

Says something when Labour's only hope is that the country goes down the toilet...

quarky

Evilmags said:

The longer may waits the bigger a majority she will get...

I think that is true. An election now would actually be OK for Labour in some ways because of Brexit (people might vote for Labour because they want to see the direction reversed). The longer things go on though, the less of an issue that becomes, an the less artificial support Labour would get from that.

Philly_Q

paulads said:

I hope there is a general election called very soon. It'll be interesting to see if our current prime minister is "electable"

And the people will decide, rather than the fretboard.

To be fair to us, we are the people.  Or at least some of 'em.

Anyway, I doubt there'll be an election soon but who knows, a week is a long time in politics, as they say.  And three and a half years is a very long time.  I'm pretty sure the Tories would win an election tomorrow but by 2020, something will have happened as regards the Brexit negotiations, and if that all goes tits-up they may look a lot less secure than they do now.

Heartfeltdawn

Placidcasual79 said:

Wow - I totally don't see that. Corbyn has more charisma than almost any politician I can recently recall. Its refreshing to see a politician whose every move and utterance isn't designed by a committee of PR guru's. He appears to be, by the standards set by most populist politicians, almost human!

I don't agree that he has consigned Labour to perennial opposition or pressure group status or that he is somehow unelectable. He is a principled person and that will appeal to a new generation of apathetic voters fed on careerist politicians who are afraid to say anything that even approaches an opinion without first testing it out on a million pilot groups first. He doesn't engage in the shameful sound bite, sloganeering and bitchy arguing that we have come to accept as modern politics. Corbyn is electable because he is dignified, respectful and has a key ingredient missed by so many - integrity!  

I understand that he is unpopular with factions of the Labour party because they think he is unelectable - again this is because he isn't prepared to adopt in vogue policy.

The widely held perception that Corbyn is weak is also a misconception. I think people confuse weak with idealistic and dignified. In actual fact Corbyn is the opposite of weak. He has swam against the tide for the entirety of his political career, he doesn't fear the media and rarely engages in undignified slanging matches. Earlier in this thread someone suggested that Putin would see Corbyn as an easy target. I disagree - what is it about Corbyn that is weak? I would suggest that this view of weak stems from old fashioned misogynistic concepts of what is strong.  

Firstly, that final sentence deserves to be shat on severely (which pains me given that you're a SFA fan). You can suggest that this stems from old fashioned misogynistic concepts. Equally I can suggest that it's the single most ridiculous thing ever written in this forum. If I were to denounce Donald Trump as unelectable and weak (for he is weak), would you say that was coming from some twisted misogynistic lump within my brain? Of course not so please keep such cretinous concepts restricted to the back of a lavatory door somewhere. 

But hey, we agree on SFA. I just wanna smoke it... and offer a rebuttal or two. 


1. His every move and utterance is indeed not designed by PR gurus. That's how he can fuck up so badly as he did with Virgin trains. This is how he can give press conferences with his shadow cabinet where he ends up so spooked by Sky News that he starts mumbling under his breath and acting peculiar (a bloke who invites the press to SC and who then gets freaked out by press being there is not entirely level). But you're in cloud fucking cuckoo land if you think that everything Corbyn does is unscripted and off the cuff, and completely negates the influence of Seamus Milne. Corbyn doesn't have a wide group of advisors: instead it's a very very small group as countless Labour MPs have testified, one where it's fucking hard to get involved in discussion if you come from outside of that group. For all the grand talk of greater democracy, the actual Corbyn inner sanctum is a fucking tight clique. 

2. Corbyn doesn't have PR gurus: he has PR amateurs in the form of Momentum. It doesn't give him any moral high ground whatsoever. 

3. Principled person and integrity - on some issues, yes. On the referendum, he had none and has continued to have none since then (as said previously on this thread, the way he's chickenshitted out of referendum debate post-ref is shameful. The first rally he gave after the referendum was in London to a lot of EU supporting voters. He stood up there, barely addressed it, and did so whilst flanked by representatives and placards belonging to two unions who came out in favour of Leave). 

4. That same integrity has led him and his supporters to claim that Corbyn helped bring home the win for the Labour mayor in Bristol this year. That claim is bollocks. 

5. Talk to some of the constituency members. Many will tell you how the activists come to meetings in order to vote and do fuck all else. They are involved with Momentum and Corbyn but not with the party. 

6. "He doesn't engage in the shameful sound bite, sloganeering and bitchy arguing that we have come to accept as modern politics." - no, because he doesn't have to. Go to his rallies and you hear the shameful soundbiting etc coming from his supporters. He doesn't condone it or censor people for their opinions. I've heard first hand some fucking disgraceful words coming from his supporters that they'd scream blue murder about if they were coming from Tory or UKIP supporters. He can stride around as the innocent man whilst all the while those worshipping him will carry out the assassinations in his name.

7. "He is a principled person and that will appeal to a new generation of apathetic voters fed on careerist politicians who are afraid to say anything that even approaches an opinion without first testing it out on a million pilot groups first." - Arse. A huge number of his supporters are people for whom 2010 was their first vote. Apathetic on your first or second GE vote is your personal failure. What he has is a large amount of old Marxist/union support and a large amount of the young tweet-friendly crowd. The voters that he needs in order to win are those who are much older, the 35 to 55 bracket, people who grew disillusioned with Labour because of Blair but who don't see any future in the pie in the sky proclamations of the Corbyn faithful. 

And consider this: his policies may not have come through focus groups and the like but by taking on a lot of old Marxist beliefs, his policies have been tested through some seriously dodgy regimes, have often failed, and have seen all manner of struggles over the years. A new policy going through a year of political focus group debate is still newer than something stained by the hand of Engels. 

8. Trump versus Corbyn: a old bloke has come to power based on a rejection of traditional media, a rejection of the perceived failing politicians, and a groundswell of online-led support. He comes up speaking his mind and appeals to specific segments of society. The traditional media say he's unelectable but he keeps moving on despite the odd PR faux pas and blunder whilst the party he represents fall over itself whilst figuring out whether to follow him, fall on their swords, or to dream idly about having him JFK'd. His supporters chant and cheer quite mindlessly on occasion. 

There isn't that much different between Trump and Corbyn in terms of how they got there. Neither have particularly detailed plans for what they would do if they gained the keys to high office. Both to me are equally unelectable. All those members of the Labour PLP who voted against their leader aren't careerist Blairite stooges whatever his supporters might claim. The danger with Corbyn is the idea put forward that he is whiter than white. For one thing, this isn't true. The second is that it elevates him up onto a platform of superiority, the sort of platform that can lead to a very large fall in the end. 
 
Socialism is something I believe in. Happy clappy mung bean socialism is not something I believe in, just as I didn't believe in Blair and New Labour and cast my vote elsewhere. 

 

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

The longer may waits the bigger a majority she will get...

Abso-fucking-lutely. There is no gain from her calling an election right now or at any stage before 2020. If she takes Brexit right, then she could take some serious numbers away from UKIP. If Labour continue to capsize and she gets her balance right on the social aspect as she is trying with grammar schools, then she could easily take some Labour votes away. All the cards are with her and it would be a complete waste of time to call an early election.

quarky said:

I think that is true. An election now would actually be OK for Labour in some ways because of Brexit (people might vote for Labour because they want to see the direction reversed). The longer things go on though, the less of an issue that becomes, an the less artificial support Labour would get from that.

Why would people who want to remain in Europe vote for a party where the leader was a Eurosceptic and has hardly been sobbing since the referendum result? Brexit has been mostly peripheral in Corbyn's discussion points. He's hardly going to go into an election on a 'Let's stay in Europe' ticket and any debate on the matter would see him torn limb for limb and his fabled integrity would be smashed. To me, he's taken great pains to distance himself from Brexit, partly with an attitude of "leave it alone for the Tories to sort out" and partly because it would be fucking tricky explaining to his metropolitan support why he favoured Leave.  

For once, possibly the first time since he became leader, Tim Farron got on the right track: position yourself as pro-Europe, push that bit. Corbyn Labour don't have that option in my view.