What exactly is Jeremy Corbyn's plan?

quarky

Heartfeltdawn said:

I think that is true. An election now would actually be OK for Labour in some ways because of Brexit (people might vote for Labour because they want to see the direction reversed). The longer things go on though, the less of an issue that becomes, an the less artificial support Labour would get from that.

Why would people who want to remain in Europe vote for a party where the leader was a Eurosceptic and has hardly been sobbing since the referendum result? Brexit has been mostly peripheral in Corbyn's discussion points. He's hardly going to go into an election on a 'Let's stay in Europe' ticket and any debate on the matter would see him torn limb for limb and his fabled integrity would be smashed. To me, he's taken great pains to distance himself from Brexit, partly with an attitude of "leave it alone for the Tories to sort out" and partly because it would be fucking tricky explaining to his metropolitan support why he favoured Leave.  

For once, possibly the first time since he became leader, Tim Farron got on the right track: position yourself as pro-Europe, push that bit. Corbyn Labour don't have that option in my view. 

I think people have short memories. If there was an election now, saying "vote for us and we will have another referendum" would be the best position for Labour to take. If the current Government is about leaving the EU, adopting a position contrary to that would be the logical thing to do. I think the fact that it is largely peripheral is because there isn't anything to be gained by it at the moment. Just my opinion, but I just don't see anything else about Corbyn appealing to enough people to get into power.

Heartfeltdawn

Yes they do but newspapers don't and have more than enough ammunition to remind the electorate. Corbyn was adamant post-ref that there would be no second referendum. Any change in his stance would look as weak as Boris Johnson's change of heart and the notion of 'The party members voted through this policy' would be gutless buckpassing. 

There's also the side issue of having to explain to those Labour voters who voted Brexit why there should be a second referendum. To go with a pro-Europe election policy might well gain more support in the metropolitan areas but will surely see more people slide away from Labour. On Europe, I really do think that the best Labour policy is to wash their hands of it as it offers far more opportunity for further party division than anything else. 

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

Placidcasual79 said:

Wow - I totally don't see that. Corbyn has more charisma than almost any politician I can recently recall. Its 

The widely held perception that Corbyn is weak is also a misconception. I think people confuse weak with idealistic and dignified. In actual fact Corbyn is the opposite of weak. He has swam against the tide for the entirety of his political career, he doesn't fear the media and rarely engages in undignified slanging matches. Earlier in this thread someone suggested that Putin would see Corbyn as an easy target. I disagree - what is it about Corbyn that is weak? I would suggest that this view of weak stems from old fashioned misogynistic concepts of what is strong.  

Firstly, that final sentence deserves to be shat on severely (which pains me given that you're a SFA fan). You can suggest that this stems from old fashioned misogynistic concepts. Equally I can suggest that it's the single most ridiculous thing ever written in this forum. If I were to denounce Donald Trump as unelectable and weak (for he is weak), would you say that was coming from some twisted misogynistic lump within my brain? Of course not so please keep such cretinous concepts restricted to the back of a lavatory door somewhere. 

But hey, we agree on SFA. I just wanna smoke it... and offer a rebuttal or two. 


1. His every move and utterance is indeed not designed by PR gurus. That's how he can fuck up so badly as he did with Virgin trains. This is how he can give press conferences with his shadow cabinet where he ends up so spooked by Sky News that he starts mumbling under his breath and acting peculiar (a bloke who invites the press to SC and who then gets freaked out by press being there is not entirely level). But you're in cloud fucking cuckoo land if you think that everything Corbyn does is unscripted and off the cuff, and completely negates the influence of Seamus Milne. Corbyn doesn't have a wide group of advisors: instead it's a very very small group as countless Labour MPs have testified, one where it's fucking hard to get involved in discussion if you come from outside of that group. For all the grand talk of greater democracy, the actual Corbyn inner sanctum is a fucking tight clique. 

2. Corbyn doesn't have PR gurus: he has PR amateurs in the form of Momentum. It doesn't give him any moral high ground whatsoever. 

3. Principled person and integrity - on some issues, yes. On the referendum, he had none and has continued to have none since then (as said previously on this thread, the way he's chickenshitted out of referendum debate post-ref is shameful. The first rally he gave after the referendum was in London to a lot of EU supporting voters. He stood up there, barely addressed it, and did so whilst flanked by representatives and placards belonging to two unions who came out in favour of Leave). 

4. That same integrity has led him and his supporters to claim that Corbyn helped bring home the win for the Labour mayor in Bristol this year. Absolute fucking bollocks. 

5. Go and talk to some of the constituency members. Many will tell you how the activists come to meetings in order to vote and do fuck all else. They are involved with Momentum and Corbyn but not with the party. 

6. "He doesn't engage in the shameful sound bite, sloganeering and bitchy arguing that we have come to accept as modern politics." - no, because he doesn't have to. Go to his fucking rallies and you hear the shameful soundbiting etc coming from his supporters. He doesn't condone it or censor people for their opinions. I've heard first hand some fucking disgraceful words coming from his supporters that they'd scream blue murder about if they were coming from Tory or UKIP supporters. He can stride around as the innocent man whilst all the while those worshipping him will carry out the assassinations in his name.

7. "He is a principled person and that will appeal to a new generation of apathetic voters fed on careerist politicians who are afraid to say anything that even approaches an opinion without first testing it out on a million pilot groups first." - fucking bollocks. A huge number of his supporters are people for whom 2010 was their first vote. Apathetic on your first or second vote is personal failure. What he has is a large amount of old Marxist/union support and a large amount of the young tweet-friendly crowd. The voters that he needs in order to win are those who are much older, the 35 to 55 bracket, people who grew disillusioned with Labour because of Blair but who don't see any future in the pie in the sky proclamations of the Corbyn faithful. 

And consider this: his policies may not have come through focus groups and the like but by taking on a lot of old Marxist beliefs, his policies have been tested through some seriously dodgy regimes, have often failed, and have seen all manner of struggles over the years. A new policy going through a year of political focus group debate is still newer than something stained by the hand of Engels. 

8. Trump versus Corbyn: a old bloke has come to power based on a rejection of traditional media, a rejection of the perceived failing politicians, and a groundswell of online-led support. He comes up speaking his mind and appeals to specific segments of society. The traditional media say he's unelectable but he keeps moving on despite the odd PR faux pas and blunder whilst the party he represents fall over itself whilst figuring out whether to follow him, fall on their swords, or to dream idly about having him JFK'd. His supporters chant and cheer quite mindlessly on occasion. 

There isn't that much different between Trump and Corbyn in terms of how they got there. Neither have particularly detailed plans for what they would do if they gained the keys to high office. Both to me are equally unelectable. All those members of the Labour PLP who voted against their leader aren't careerist Blairite stooges whatever his supporters might claim. The danger with Corbyn is the idea put forward that he is whiter than white. For one thing, this isn't true. The second is that it elevates him up onto a platform of superiority, the sort of platform that can lead to a very large fall in the end. 
 
Socialism is something I believe in. Happy clappy mung bean socialism is not something I believe in, just as I didn't believe in Blair and New Labour and cast my vote elsewhere. 
 

well put, although I preferred New Labour to John Major & the Libs. Not happy about Iraq though!

ToneControl

quarky said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

I think that is true. An election now would actually be OK for Labour in some ways because of Brexit (people might vote for Labour because they want to see the direction reversed). The longer things go on though, the less of an issue that becomes, an the less artificial support Labour would get from that.

Why would people who want to remain in Europe vote for a party where the leader was a Eurosceptic and has hardly been sobbing since the referendum result? Brexit has been mostly peripheral in Corbyn's discussion points. He's hardly going to go into an election on a 'Let's stay in Europe' ticket and any debate on the matter would see him torn limb for limb and his fabled integrity would be smashed. To me, he's taken great pains to distance himself from Brexit, partly with an attitude of "leave it alone for the Tories to sort out" and partly because it would be fucking tricky explaining to his metropolitan support why he favoured Leave.  

For once, possibly the first time since he became leader, Tim Farron got on the right track: position yourself as pro-Europe, push that bit. Corbyn Labour don't have that option in my view. 

I think people have short memories. If there was an election now, saying "vote for us and we will have another referendum" would be the best position for Labour to take. If the current Government is about leaving the EU, adopting a position contrary to that would be the logical thing to do. I think the fact that it is largely peripheral is because there isn't anything to be gained by it at the moment. Just my opinion, but I just don't see anything else about Corbyn appealing to enough people to get into power.

no,  if labour did that, UKIP would  take  lots of Labour  votes

Axe_meister

Well May can't call an election any way so that is a moot point.

lloyd

His major problem is if (he won't) he gets into power.

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and say you've got all the answers and you're gonna do it the socialist way, the issue is that compromises have to be made when you get into power that you don't need to when you're the opposition.

No-one gets a blank chequebook, no-one inherits a perfectly working country and no-one lives in isolation.

The guy doesn't have the backing of his Westminster party, which means he can't control the decision making part of his party and if we all know it, he must know that he's got zero chance of being elected into power. 

So I'm not sure what his plan is, probably to stand from the sideline saying how much better he'd do it if he was just given the chance.

ICBM

Axe_meister said:

Well May can't call an election any way so that is a moot point.

It baffles me why people haven't understood this yet.

Under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, the only ways there will be an election before 2020 are:

If there is a vote of confidence in the government and they lose. This will not happen because the Tories have a majority, and even if some Tories voted against their own party and they did lose, then May would then have to resign.

If there is a two-thirds majority for an early election. Despite Corbyn appearing to welcome this, it won't happen because the rest of his party will rightly regard it as suicide and vote against it, the Lib Dems are in no position to fight one now so they will too and the SNP don't want one either.

The result of a general election now would be an increased Tory majority.

The only sensible plan for Labour is to sit tight, try not to let Corbyn make too many more Virgin Trains cockups, and hope that by 2019 either May has made a balls-up of leaving the EU and we are still in - hence becoming drastically unpopular with Leave voters - or Corbyn recognises that he's too old and probably unelectable, and steps down in favour of someone like Benn... or the Labour Party see the way the wind is blowing and make a better job of getting rid of him.

The *best* plan for Labour would be to try to work with Corbyn and produce a credible left-of-centre party with him as more of a figurehead than a real leader, but I can't see that happening with the level of infighting, the lack of enough credible figures in the party and the presence of inner-circle cronies like McDonnell.

Evilmags

Unless he gets some of those momentum thugs to back down on the anti Jewish shite they are spouting the Tories PR machine will have a hey day with it. Female Jewish MPs recieving 20,000 death threats under your watch from your supporters is so grossly repugnant in 2016 that is defies belief. 

From Guido Fawkes

Today at Labour Conference

9:46am: Corbyn tells Jewish peer who quit Labour over anti-Semitism to “reflect“.

9:56am: Corbyn says he backs war crimes investigations into British troops.

10:00am: Corbyn says he opposes giving more resources to MI6.

10:22am: McDonnell defends calling Esther McVey “a stain on humanity”.

10:40am: Yvette Cooper tells McDonnell to apologise.

11:06am: McDonnell doubles down, says “yes I do” think they were the right words.

11:15pm: Derek Hatton spotted in the conference hall.

11:52am: Ken Livingstone talks about Hitler on the BBC.

1:42am: Delegate rants about “Jewish MPs” and “Jewish plot to oust Corbyn”.

1:50pm: Fringe speaker compares Tory welfare policy to Nazis’ Arbeit Macht Frei.

5:00pm: Momentum host speaker who called for a Jewish man’s throat to be cut.

5:25pm: Anti-war merchandise mocking injured British soldiers on sale.

6:00pm: Jackie Walker says anti-Semitism in Labour is “exaggerated“.

6:30pm: Leaflets circulated: “Jewish Labour Movement does not belong in Labour”.

Skipped

ICBM said:

It baffles me why people haven't understood this yet.

She would have to jump through many hoops before it could happen. That is something that we can all agree about. Several Westminster Journalists have said the same thing which is - Don't rule it out.

I think she will want to win an Election as PM. I think she will want to serve the full term that follows that win.
I think there are compelling reasons why she might want that to be sooner rather than later.
That is the Elephant in the Room that no Westminster Journalist dares to touch.

Chalky

Corbyn's lieutenant says "Our government will create an entrepreneurial state that works with the wealth creators, the workers and the entrepreneurs to create the products and the markets that will secure our long-term prosperity,".

Do you think McDonnell has any clue what his words mean?  Be interesting to see if there is any detail behind this big woolly assertion.

Snap

Some of the Labour Party big nobs must be cringing at the state of the party today. Is it anything more than one big standing joke?

Heartfeltdawn

lloyd said:

No-one gets a blank chequebook, no-one inherits a perfectly working country and no-one lives in isolation.

Indeed. When you look at the situations that both David Cameron and Barack Obama inherited when coming into power, then their ability to change direction on policies becomes more understandable in some sectors (particularly when bills can be stymied far easier in the US than the UK). 

Philly_Q

Evilmags said:

Unless he gets some of those momentum thugs to back down on the anti Jewish shite they are spouting the Tories PR machine will have a hey day with it. Female Jewish MPs recieving 20,000 death threats under your watch from your supporters is so grossly repugnant in 2016 that is defies belief. 

From Guido Fawkes

Today at Labour Conference

9:46am: Corbyn tells Jewish peer who quit Labour over anti-Semitism to “reflect“.

9:56am: Corbyn says he backs war crimes investigations into British troops.

10:00am: Corbyn says he opposes giving more resources to MI6.

10:22am: McDonnell defends calling Esther McVey “a stain on humanity”.

10:40am: Yvette Cooper tells McDonnell to apologise.

11:06am: McDonnell doubles down, says “yes I do” think they were the right words.

11:15pm: Derek Hatton spotted in the conference hall.

11:52am: Ken Livingstone talks about Hitler on the BBC.

1:42am: Delegate rants about “Jewish MPs” and “Jewish plot to oust Corbyn”.

1:50pm: Fringe speaker compares Tory welfare policy to Nazis’ Arbeit Macht Frei.

5:00pm: Momentum host speaker who called for a Jewish man’s throat to be cut.

5:25pm: Anti-war merchandise mocking injured British soldiers on sale.

6:00pm: Jackie Walker says anti-Semitism in Labour is “exaggerated“.

6:30pm: Leaflets circulated: “Jewish Labour Movement does not belong in Labour”.

Is this for real?  I know the first few are because I heard about them on the news, but from Derek Hatton onwards it's just horrific.

ICBM

If that's all true it's deeply worrying - not so much the presence of Hatton, but the anti-semitic stuff. If it is so then the party is in danger of imploding totally if Corbyn doesn't get an immediate grip on it.

Heartfeltdawn

^^
Some of them are typical Guido-style stretching things via the removal of full context. 

1.42am: the 'delegate' isn't named at all. Nobody knows who the fuck he was. The article goes on to say that the delegate asked if Angela Eagle's husband were Jewish. That'd be Angela Eagle, out of the closet lesbian, then. Perhaps the delegate might be best described as a fucking loon rather than representative of some deep Labour chasm of jew hatred. 

http://order-order.com/2016/09/25/labour-delegate-rants-against-jews/

1.50pm: it was quite an interesting comparison actually from a disabled woman who has heard the message of how work can set you free. 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/actress-liz-carr-stuns-audience-8911590#ICID=sharebar_twitter


That there is a serious anti-semitism problem within Labour is not in question. I'd recommend Adam Bienkov's report of the Momentum meeting from Sunday: 

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/09/26/expulsions-denial-conspiracy-momentum-discusses-antisemitism

Evilmags

Put yourself in Lynton Crosby or any other Tory election stratagist´s shoes. Your job is to keep Corby out and increase May´s majority. The anti Jewish racisim is like the biggest gift you could get. A political equivalent of a 9 year old boy getting every christmas and birthday at once, when his parents are billionaires. 

What can not be doubted, at all, is that Corbyn has (intentionally or not) made anti semitisim socially acceptable in a way it has never been in UK society in my adult life. The fact that a Jewish academic was told to "get back in your oven" by a UK Corbynite academic is something I find as repulsive as I do disturbing. I suspect a large proprtion of the electorate agree with me and when Female Labour MPs look to the PM and the state to protect them against abuse that has no place in a civilised society when their own leader wont, Their is a serious problem. 

I honestly cannot see how anyone who dissaproves of racisim could possibly vote Labour. 

Sporky

Heartfeltdawn said:

^^
Some of them are typical Guido-style stretching things via the removal of full context. 

I'm not sure why the potentially anti-semitic stuff (I say potentially because there's a lack of context and I don't know if the reporting is accurate, I'm not making a value judgement) is interspersed with other stuff that has nothing to do with that. Presumably it's expected that the great unwashed will see that it's a very long list and thus worse.

I may be missing the point - I find political squabbling fairly uninteresting - but I'm not sure what these ones have to do with anti-semitism:

9:56am: Corbyn says he backs war crimes investigations into British troops.

10:00am: Corbyn says he opposes giving more resources to MI6.

10:40am: Yvette Cooper tells McDonnell to apologise.

11:15pm: Derek Hatton spotted in the conference hall.

5:25pm: Anti-war merchandise mocking injured British soldiers on sale.

That's just over a third of the list.

JezWynd

Heartfeltdawn said:

That there is a serious anti-semitism problem within Labour is not in question. I'd recommend Adam Bienkov's report of the Momentum meeting from Sunday: 

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/09/26/expulsions-denial-conspiracy-momentum-discusses-antisemitism

Now I'm really confused.

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

Put yourself in Lynton Crosby or any other Tory election stratagist´s shoes. Your job is to keep Corby out and increase May´s majority. The anti Jewish racisim is like the biggest gift you could get. A political equivalent of a 9 year old boy getting every christmas and birthday at once, when his parents are billionaires. 

What can not be doubted, at all, is that Corbyn has (intentionally or not) made anti semitisim socially acceptable in a way it has never been in UK society in my adult life. The fact that a Jewish academic was told to "get back in your oven" by a UK Corbynite academic is something I find as repulsive as I do disturbing. I suspect a large proprtion of the electorate agree with me and when Female Labour MPs look to the PM and the state to protect them against abuse that has no place in a civilised society when their own leader wont, Their is a serious problem. 

I honestly cannot see how anyone who dissaproves of racisim could possibly vote Labour. 

It is a gift and it distracts from the bullshit that Crosby specialises in. His input into Zac Goldsmith's mayoral campaign was as offensive as anything that's come out of the anti-semitic furore this year around Labour. If Ken Livingstone is a cunt for what he said, then Crosby is worse because he keeps exporting the same dog whistle racism everywhere he goes, whether it's in Australia, Canada working for Stephen Harper, or his time with the Tories and Boris. 

So there's no moral high ground for the Tories here in my view. You can't rattle the cage over the other side and the Jewish problem whilst simultaneously knighting a guy like Crosby with a history like that. What has been created around the political spectrum is an environment where there is a lack of respect, consideration, and plain humanity. This environment isn't restricted to Corbyn and Momentum. It's there in PMQs and it goes through the system. 

The "get back in the oven" comment... are we referring to the Henrietta Foster incident at the Proms? Jones did claim it was a joke: without further evidence as not much appears to have come from it, I can't judge whether it's a full on antisemitic attack. It does pose the question though that I'd set to some like yourself who oppose political correctness: would a gag about the Holocaust be off limits? It's an interesting debate point and one I might think about later after baking some stilton and rosemary shortbread (decent sea salt on top, absolutely delicious). 

The gender issue is one that intrigues me. The greatest chorus line against Corbyn from within Labour have featured female voices. Corbyn himself frequently surrounds himself with women (as witnessed on Saturday at the leadership announcement. He had gaggles of 'em around him when his numbers came up). The more one sees of Corbyn, the more similarities to Trump he has. 

Sporky

Heartfeltdawn said:

It does pose the question though that I'd set to some like yourself who oppose political correctness: would a gag about the Holocaust be off limits? 

Mags has an interesting double standard here. He's on record calling people eco-nazis and feminazis, but said that "climate change denier" was unacceptably offensive because it drew parallels with holocaust denial.