High End, Super-chimy Amps?

thomasross20

Thanks! Going by your explanations you'd think power scaling would sound the best. The one I'm getting will have master volume (pre or post  PI, I don't know) and power scaling... and I guess I can always try connecting to an attenuator, so I could do a GREAT demo to see what sounds the best, right?

When I get the amp I'd love for you to come try it! 

martinw

Personally I prefer Power Scaling. I've never heard an attenuator that sounds good below a modest reduction for gigging levels.

Correct use of Power Scaling implies that you combine it with a master volume anyway (or Drive Compensation, if fitted instead) particularly at low (home) levels.

I don't think that power supply sag is an issue for most people, and is overstated. In any case, the payoff of being able to drive the output valves hard and cause compression thusly outweighs it hugely in my opinion. Of course tastes vary!

No system or method is perfect, and some amps benefit from one type more than another.

thomasross20

I had a link in another thread where a guy put demos up of the same amp with an attenuator then power-scaling. Probably lame demo as listening to something online but I must find it as last time I listened it was only on my phone.

ICBM

martinw said:

I don't think that power supply sag is an issue for most people, and is overstated.

It was a big revelation for me when I discovered that I much preferred valve rectified amps with very saggy power supplies (PT as well as rectifier). I hadn't expected it to make much of a difference when you're not thrashing the amp, but it does… it's what I like so much about the Mesa Rectifiers.

Obviously you can get very close by just sticking a large amount of resistance in the supply path without a valve, too. Would that work with power scaling - if you did it after the voltage control? I haven't experimented with anything like that.

(Sorry, bit of a thread creep .)

stickyfiddle

ICBM said:

stickyfiddle said:

Ok, so I've watched a bunch of the Champions of Chime videos and a lot of them aren't what I'm after at all. Notwithstanding the fact that most don't have master volumes so are out anyway, they go too far into that raspy Vox thing that's actually not very nice. So maybe "chime" is not quite the right word to describe what I want.

What I'm craving is that compressed edge-of-clean/crunch thing that good Voxes and Fender Deluxes do, but a fuller midrange when wound beyond that.

In that case I'd still go for the Blue speaker (or possibly a Gold, if you want more mids), and an attenuator. You won't get the compression without pushing the power stage hard, even with a master volume to create overdrive - that will give more of the raspy Voxy thing. So I would start with those and your Laney, and only change the amp if that doesn't work since you will still need them (at least the attenuator) with any other amp you get.

For me power scaling doesn't do it - you don't get the 'bounce' because the power supply isn't under the same load when the amp is producing less power. Only attenuation does that.

Ok, so probably worth trying a Blue first (the amp is already plenty middly so no need for a Gold- I'd rather have more top available is possible), and some kind of attenuation. It's only 5W, so maybe even an L-pad might do it? 

The question is whether I actually want to keep this amp or go for something voiced differently anyway... I should probably wind it up for a few minutes (at risk of the neighbours' wrath) and see just how close it gets to that chime I'm after.

TimmyO

stickyfiddle said:

Another option is a Maz 8, which I realise is a bit more Marshall-flavoured than all the above, but they do sound really really nice in demos, and I loved @Timmyo's Maz18 at a gearfest a few years ago.

the Maz is a great amp. I owned mine for years and one that time found a myriad ways to get a great sound from it - one (bizarrely) was to dime the EQ, use 'cut' to taste and turn the amp up so that it needed controlling from the guitar - a visceral experience! 

I think some people get a bit put off them because they have no negative feedback so can be unforgiving if you are used to a 'softer' response. Once you master it though it's a wonderfully expressive thing - you an cut when you want to and lay back when you want to - I loved it. If you need a forgiving, liquid lead sound it shows pedals off well (I used a BB Pre for that, or a KOT with both sides on) 

The master volume on it is really good too - I played a 'dinner' type gig with the master barely on and got through it ;-) 

TimmyO

Ignore Master Volumes if it is limiting your options - put some of that bonus to a Marshall Power Break or a Sequis Motherlode or a Torpedo Reload 

stickyfiddle

Right, have had a play. There's something about the Laney that feels very stiff. Tinally it's ok, if a bit "barky", or shouty perhaps. But really it's more of a feel thing, as I'm wanting a bit more squish or sag than it gives me. Not sure a blue speaker would give me that. Also doesn't help that the reverb on the L5T is absolutely pony.

Somewhat ironically my old VC15 did that squishy thing brilliantly, it was just a bit boxy being such a small thing. That same feel in a more refined (and dare I say "boutiquey"?) package would be perfect.

paulmapp8306

Morgan AC20?  bit over your budget new at £2k but fantastic amp.  Not sure how available used ones are - dont see many 2nd hand Morgans.

stickyfiddle

paulmapp8306 said:

Morgan AC20?  bit over your budget new at £2k but fantastic amp.  Not sure how available used ones are - dont see many 2nd hand Morgans.

Too raspy when wound up, no reverb, not a combo, and honestly I'm moderately terrified of amps with less than 5 knobs. 

Also, I'm not keen to take a bath on something at that price point if I don't want to keep it forever, which would definitely be the case with something that niche. Even Badcats and Dr Zs look hard enough to sell from the looks of eBay and the classifieds. 

TimmyO

stickyfiddle said:

Right, have had a play. There's something about the Laney that feels very stiff. Tinally it's ok, if a bit "barky", or shouty perhaps. But really it's more of a feel thing, as I'm wanting a bit more squish or sag than it gives me. 

then it may be that you *don't* want a no-negatve-feedback power section actually ... 

ICBM

TimmyO said:

Ignore Master Volumes if it is limiting your options - put some of that bonus to a Marshall Power Break or a Sequis Motherlode or a Torpedo Reload 

[Pet Peeve Warning]

Why is it that no-one, I mean no-one, on the internet can ever spell Marshall PowerBRAKE ?!!!

It's even written like that on the front of the unit…

Break: to damage or destroy.

Brake: to slow down or control.

[/Pet Peeve]

Sorry .

stickyfiddle said:

Right, have had a play. There's something about the Laney that feels very stiff. Tinally it's ok, if a bit "barky", or shouty perhaps. But really it's more of a feel thing, as I'm wanting a bit more squish or sag than it gives me. Not sure a blue speaker would give me that. Also doesn't help that the reverb on the L5T is absolutely pony.

Somewhat ironically my old VC15 did that squishy thing brilliantly, it was just a bit boxy being such a small thing. That same feel in a more refined (and dare I say "boutiquey"?) package would be perfect.

Could be because the Lionhearts are Class A. (Single-ended actually, but these Laneys are very close to being true Class A.)

The classic Vox compression and chime is actually because they're Class AB cathode-biased, which is not the same thing. It's precisely *because* they're not Class A that they sound like that.

Of course, the VC15 is also Class AB .

stickyfiddle

ICBM said:

TimmyO said:

Ignore Master Volumes if it is limiting your options - put some of that bonus to a Marshall Power Break or a Sequis Motherlode or a Torpedo Reload 

[Pet Peeve Warning]
(snip)

stickyfiddle said:

Right, have had a play. There's something about the Laney that feels very stiff. Tinally it's ok, if a bit "barky", or shouty perhaps. But really it's more of a feel thing, as I'm wanting a bit more squish or sag than it gives me. Not sure a blue speaker would give me that. Also doesn't help that the reverb on the L5T is absolutely pony.

Somewhat ironically my old VC15 did that squishy thing brilliantly, it was just a bit boxy being such a small thing. That same feel in a more refined (and dare I say "boutiquey"?) package would be perfect.

Could be because the Lionhearts are Class A. (Single-ended actually, but these Laneys are very close to being true Class A.)

The classic Vox compression and chime is actually because they're Class AB cathode-biased, which is not the same thing. It's precisely *because* they're not Class A that they sound like that.

Of course, the VC15 is also Class AB .

I'm sure the marketing says they're single ended Class A, which I always thought was a good thing in theory, but if in practice I'm not loving it then maybe not! If that's a specific difference between those specs it would certainly explain why I've alway got on with 2xEL84 class AB stuff and the L5T just isn't quite clicking.

It also means the Maz 8 is definitley out. The Cub III is still looking the likely winner. Maybe with an attenuator as well.


Or I drop @MartinW an email to see what he do along those lines with MV, power scaling and a Celestion blue..

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

I'm sure the marketing says they're single ended Class A, which I always thought was a good thing in theory, but if in practice I'm not loving it then maybe not! If that's a specific difference between those specs it would certainly explain why I've alway got on with 2xEL84 class AB stuff and the L5T just isn't quite clicking.

Yes, it is - it's ironic when the myth is that Voxes are Class A, that their characteristic sound is specifically that of cathode-biased Class AB and *not* of Class A.

Single-ended amps are *in theory* always Class A, but in practice they're often not biased correctly to really fit the conditions - the Laneys do seem to be though, I haven't measured a L5, but the L20 is.

The problem is that 'Class A' has become used as a marketing tool to imply 'best', whereas really it's just a very specific operating condition that has more relevance to hi-fi than guitar amps.

Moe_Zambeek

what guitar / pickups are you using, out of interest?

stickyfiddle

Moe_Zambeek said:

what guitar / pickups are you using, out of interest?

Strat, Tele, Gibson CS336 and SG, MJT Jazzmaster, all with the standard pickup types, plus a Gretsch and thinline Cabronita with TV Jones. Nothing high-gain!

Moe_Zambeek

Chime aplenty there for sure! 

Another option would be the Gretsch playboy from around 2009 ish, made by Victoria, if you could find one. Great amps. 

TimmyO

ICBM said:

TimmyO said:

Ignore Master Volumes if it is limiting your options - put some of that bonus to a Marshall Power Break or a Sequis Motherlode or a Torpedo Reload 

[Pet Peeve Warning]

Why is it that no-one, I mean no-one, on the internet can ever spell Marshall PowerBRAKE ?!!!

It's even written like that on the front of the unit…

Break: to damage or destroy.

Brake: to slow down or control.

[/Pet Peeve]

Sorry .

In my defence, Mac autocorrect is as shitty as the iOS one. Buy you type faster and don't notice it happening. 

TimmyO

TimmyO said:

ICBM said:

TimmyO said:

Ignore Master Volumes if it is limiting your options - put some of that bonus to a Marshall Power Break or a Sequis Motherlode or a Torpedo Reload 

[Pet Peeve Warning]

Why is it that no-one, I mean no-one, on the internet can ever spell Marshall PowerBRAKE ?!!!

It's even written like that on the front of the unit…

Break: to damage or destroy.

Brake: to slow down or control.

[/Pet Peeve]

Sorry .

In my defence, Mac autocorrect is as shitty as the iOS one. Buy you type faster and don't notice it happening. 

I pest my base 

ThePrettyDamned

It sounds like the vc15 was an amp you liked. How about grabbing that, or a v30, and a Marshall power brake and a celestion blue?