Gibson, Maybach, Tokai, Eastman (among others) Lesters

RichardsGuitars

@Teyeplayer  thanks again.  Now then.... tell me what you think is over priced?  I am trying to get my head around that comment.  If I know what you are refering to I can maybe respond better but pound for pound to my knowledge there is nothing that touches them pound for pound like for like?  That doesn't mean everyone will love them or the tone etc but in terms of what they represent they are pretty much in a unique space of their own.  So it would be really interesting to know what guitars you are refering to?  Sorry to put you on the spot!! (especially as you are my closest thing to a friend on this board it seems ha ha!!!!).  Let me know and I will try desperately to prove you wrong!

Teyeplayer

That's cool @RichardsGuitars I am happy to be called out and proven wrong. That's good old honest debate.

Let's be honest, from my part it is horrendous geographic snobbery, I will admit it. I was referring to a number of the guitars listed (prior to your mark down admittedly) at around the 2k mark. Now I appreciate a good jazzer, would often be more than this. If we were to consider Gibson, yes you'd be lucky to get a new satin finish 335 for that (although that is a very different beast). But I figure 2k is a lot of money to a good many folk, even 1.5k is and would certainly be enough to have the wife asking questions.

Which probably brings me back to the start, can a far eastern made instrument warrant that price? I get that you love them and I know other brands are doing well with the same business model (Auden make some fine acoustics) so I appreciate I will have to try some Eastmans at some point to make an informed opinion. I probably am just showing my age and the learnt snobbery about countries of origin in guitar circles from when I started playing. As an aside something I have always found bizarre in that border tryst between Canadian and US guitars -can't beat Godin and Larrivee when they get it right imho.

RichardsGuitars

OK so lets look at the 2k mark.  And in the 335 genre.  The most expensive you could ever pay for a direct 335 model would be one of their aged vintage models such as this at £1499.  I am sure even those most die hard Gibson fans would find it had to argue you would never find anything like this by Gibson.... but if you want to go to the 2k mark.....

RichardsGuitars

.... you would end up with this....

ALL SOLID WOODS.  Hand carved AAA grade maple top with hand carved mahogany back of the most exquisite quality and remember this is totally hand made.  For anything close to this in the american market I believe you would be paying at least £4000 to £5000
....

RichardsGuitars

But for £1100 you get this...   This is more high end Gibson territory.  Laminate body but again - hand made not mass produced and you wont find many Gibsons living up to the organic vibe of this guitar due to how its made (in my opinion)... but again like we say its NOT a Gibson and it cannot fill that void if you need Gibson on the headstock.  But over priced?  Noooo

Jack_

You sell Eastman guitars now, we get it.

RichardsGuitars

Jack_ said:

You sell Eastman guitars now, we get it.

lol ... Its not a secret.  

Teyeplayer

Yes I concede @RichardsGuitars those are a stunning looking set of instruments and do appear visually at least to be worth the money. Although, I am sure you'd agree that like relationships we shouldn't buy guitars simply on how pretty they are, I will have to try one at some point to give it a fair shot. The alternative of course is that I allow a disturbingly 'trump-like' pregudice against the Far East to develop, which based on that particularly foul individual is clearly something that needs exorcising and not an affiliation I in anyway want! :-) 

earwighoney

I'm not sure why so many have problems with other guitar making G type guitars, there are countless makers who make F type guitars at prices greater than Fender and are Far Eastern built as well (e.g. John Page guitars) 

Many have a problem with Eastman's prices considering they are far eastern prices, and will prefer to buy a USA built guitar for the price and if you are that way inclined then choose the USA built guitar.  For others, with myself included consider guitars like Eastman on merit of their quality and are extremely satisfied with the purchases. As a Eastman guitar owner myself, I am delighted with my guitar.  Obviously there are going to be some who will prefer other guitars but that is the way of the guitar market. 

The market is diverse enough to satisfy many different needs and I believe consumers are all the better of for the diverse representation.  

RichardsGuitars

John_P said:

Massively overpriced imo.     I just can't make the numbers work compared to buying a Gibson when similar copies are cheaper.  

What similar guitars are cheaper?

RichardsGuitars

Jack_ said:

Dude, use paragraphs, PLEASE.

Sorry @Jack_  I had a problem with the editor and it ended up being posted in html format. 

RichardsGuitars

Teyeplayer said:

Yes I concede @RichardsGuitars those are a stunning looking set of instruments and do appear visually at least to be worth the money. Although, I am sure you'd agree that like relationships we shouldn't buy guitars simply on how pretty they are, I will have to try one at some point to give it a fair shot. The alternative of course is that I allow a disturbingly 'trump-like' pregudice against the Far East to develop, which based on that particularly foul individual is clearly something that needs exorcising and not an affiliation I in anyway want! :-) 

lol. Don't get me onto that subject!  I couldn't agree more that the West is very guilty of buying into mass produced Far Eastern mediocrousy - it dominates the guitar industry but can't be mistaken for what Eastman do.  These are highly skilled craftsmen who are incredibly skilled.  Compare that to say Taylor guitars who are so proud of their mass production facility and state of the art machines that has decimated the need for skilled people thus keeping their prices remotely sensible - yet still massively over priced for what you are buying.  So many arguments for buying A or B but again its what makes it so personal.  

I would say less than 5% of the UK guitar market gives a damn about buying British and ethics or issues relating to mass production.  For me that is a massive shame but again thats just my personal view.  I like to believe a guitar has been produced by people who the build process means something.  This is why Gibson work force hate their boss so much - and that is why the quality is so poor.  The guys on the floor are treated like crap and therefore the quality of the product suffers.

John_P

RichardsGuitars said:

John_P said:

Massively overpriced imo.     I just can't make the numbers work compared to buying a Gibson when similar copies are cheaper.  

What similar guitars are cheaper?

Tokai for one and there is enough brand history to give them some appeal even if they just another copy. 

RichardsGuitars

earwighoney said:

I'm not sure why so many have problems with other guitar making G type guitars, there are countless makers who make F type guitars at prices greater than Fender and are Far Eastern built as well (e.g. John Page guitars) 

Many have a problem with Eastman's prices considering they are far eastern prices, and will prefer to buy a USA built guitar for the price and if you are that way inclined then choose the USA built guitar.  For others, with myself included consider guitars like Eastman on merit of their quality and are extremely satisfied with the purchases. As a Eastman guitar owner myself, I am delighted with my guitar.  Obviously there are going to be some who will prefer other guitars but that is the way of the guitar market. 

The market is diverse enough to satisfy many different needs and I believe consumers are all the better of for the diverse representation.  

Sounds obvious right?  But to some it seems it has to be a "right/wrong" choice and its really sad in my opinion that people are so brain washed into believing if something is made in America, no matter to what standard, what quality of woods, whatever process to speed up production to make it more "efficient" rather than an improved product - it STILL should command a higher price.  With that logic there is simply no point in anyone trying to offer the consumer something better unless is made in America?  Bizarre.

Teyeplayer

RichardsGuitars said:

I would say less than 5% of the UK guitar market gives a damn about buying British and ethics or issues relating to mass production.  For me that is a massive shame but again thats just my personal view.  I like to believe a guitar has been produced by people who the build process means something.  This is why Gibson work force hate their boss so much - and that is why the quality is so poor.  The guys on the floor are treated like crap and therefore the quality of the product suffers.

This is interesting @RichardsGuitars as this links closely to one of the lines of thought that was running through my head as I typed my original post that I struggled to articulate, as my question was rambling enough already. The ethical concern over work place conditions and how an instrument is produced.

We all know big businesses are only too willing to exploit their workforces the world over and that becomes even more extreme in places like The Far East as we notice with the immoral practices of the likes of apple in China.

Likewise, not all nations are so concerned about cites, fair trade, the ethical use of resources, etc. These are factors that in their own way are a concern and without a doubt are something we should be paying closer attention to, particularly if we want there to still be guitars in the hands of the masses in fifty years time.

So, are you able to comment on this regarding Eastman, or is that actually something we should all be looking into? What are their employment practices, wage rates and how above board is their resource sourcing? Because you are right, the big name brands have I'll-used their staff for a long time and have had enough questionable moments with resources -Brazilian rosewood anyone? ;-)

Teyeplayer

John_P said:

RichardsGuitars said:

John_P said:

Massively overpriced imo.     I just can't make the numbers work compared to buying a Gibson when similar copies are cheaper.  

What similar guitars are cheaper?

Tokai for one and there is enough brand history to give them some appeal even if they just another copy. 

This is exactly the kind of discussion I had in mind, Tokai make great guitars, Japanese QC is second to none, it's a very high order to compete with them at this price point. Has anyone on here owned or still owns similiar Eastman and Tokai models, how did they compare? 

RichardsGuitars

Couldn't agree more with all your comments.  It wil be interesting to see how many brands are effected by the latest CITES regulations on rosewood.  Eastman use the same wood supplier as Collings and only use high grade certified woods.  I find it impossible to believe that a hand made article can be maintained to to level I witness with Eastman and the employees not be feeling comfortable in their employment but I would be lying if I said I knew their specific practices and would love to learn more.  If you take a product like Gibson where all the routing, body shape etc. is all cut by machines you rely less and less on the human hand to make a mistake - yet Gibson quality regarding geometry is constantly in question.  Eastman guitars are literally carved top to toe by hand and every minute detail is hand crafted.  You should see some of their saddles and brdges on their acoustics or control knobs on the archtops etc.  Its all works of art and so easily overlooked if you dont take it all in.

Regarding employee satisfaction, this is a website I have refered to over the years.  They seem to have clawed their way back from 1 STAR out of 5 to 1.9 I see but its still dreadful.  Only 6% approve of their C.E.O Henry E. Juszkiewicz (based on 146 reviews!!!)

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Overview/Working-at-Gibson-Brands-EI_IE6869.11,24.htm

 How can you produce a product of ANY quality when people feel so disrespected in their workforce?  The answer is you can't.

mixolyd

@Teyeplayer ;

The issue with Tokai would be that they're finished in poly (at that price point) and sound like a Tokai, which may be great for some and not for others.

Eastman offer the cheapest production hand-built, nitro-finished guitar in the world as far as I can see, in that sense they are the best value for money in their own little niche.  The only others that come close that I can think of are Bacchus/Seventy Seven (Japan) and Maybach (Eastern Europe).

You can get the same thing made in the West from Collings, Feline or Heritage but it's going to cost more.

Teyeplayer

@mixolyd out of interest and purely because I haven't tried one, how would you describe the Tokai sound? Also I had been under the impression that most at this price were nitro finished -I must have been wrong, so is it that the sound is the constrained sound of poly? Or something else altogether? Thanks for your input.

mixolyd

Teyeplayer said:

@mixolyd out of interest and purely because I haven't tried one, how would you describe the Tokai sound? Also I had been under the impression that most at this price were nitro finished -I must have been wrong, so is it that the sound is the constrained sound of poly? Or something else altogether? Thanks for your input.

There are nitro Tokais but they cost a fair bit, the 335 and ls125 LP's that cost £1300 or so these days are poly.  I recall having to do a lot of digging about in the past tying to figure out the actual spec of Tokai's as they weren't too clear about it but I wouldn't expect nitro under £2k from them.

I've not been too impressed with the Tokai's I've heard - to me they tend to have that generic quality that makes me think of Seymour Duncan 59's so it may just be the pickups.  Some people love Tokai, some love Edwards you'd really have to try for yourself.  Being a lefty I've not been able to play any first hand.

Theres no reason a poly guitar can't sound great, I just balk at the idea of paying over £1k for a guitar that shares the shiny toy look of my old Epi.