Gibson, Maybach, Tokai, Eastman (among others) Lesters

RichardsGuitars

mixolyd said:

Teyeplayer said:

@mixolyd out of interest and purely because I haven't tried one, how would you describe the Tokai sound? Also I had been under the impression that most at this price were nitro finished -I must have been wrong, so is it that the sound is the constrained sound of poly? Or something else altogether? Thanks for your input.

There are nitro Tokais but they cost a fair bit, the 335 and ls125 LP's that cost £1300 or so these days are poly.  I recall having to do a lot of digging about in the past tying to figure out the actual spec of Tokai's as they weren't too clear about it but I wouldn't expect nitro under £2k from them.

I've not been too impressed with the Tokai's I've heard - to me they tend to have that generic quality that makes me think of Seymour Duncan 59's so it may just be the pickups.  Some people love Tokai, some love Edwards you'd really have to try for yourself.  Being a lefty I've not been able to play any first hand.

Theres no reason a poly guitar can't sound great, I just balk at the idea of paying over £1k for a guitar that shares the shiny toy look of my old Epi.

I hate to say it but I agree..   The reason I have to say I hate to agree is because I have some in my shop.  I was really excited about getting Tokai in (the Jap models) and I have 2 or 3.  They are all perfectly lovely but haven't bonded with them or had any great connection that I would need to have to pull me away from say a Fender US Telecaster.   Maybachs are incredible but they are now around £1600-£1700 mark I think?  Maybach really are wonderful if you can get your hands on one but obviously I have high hopes the Eastman SB59 will be my new Maybach.... fingers crossed.

RichardsGuitars

For anyone who wants to understand what "hand made" is this video gives a great insight.  Yes its messy but this is how a workshop often operates!  I remember visiting John Smith (Gordon-Smith) and his was much the same but if you were there you would emmerse yourself in it - there is something real about the experience rather than the cold sterile factory environments you see with mass produced guitars....

Danielsguitars

Here's mine, they're all hand made by me start to finish
vintage specs because that's what I like 
I pick my wood and know where it comes from and what it'll weigh 

It was a small review by a pro player who happened to live near me 

It was to get feedback from his you tube followers regarding my headstock shape which I've already changed slightly

RichardsGuitars

Lodious said:

Ultimately, these guitars have to be judged with an open mind by people who have played them. If they are truly great, then they will flourish, if not, they will go the way of the other brands Richard has been involved with.

Sorry but this comment looks like a nasty little bit of unnecessary needle, deliberately written to create an arguement.  At worst its just a lie written to damage my reputation.  I have asked you in private what the comment related to and you refused to give me any insight so maybe you could explain it publicly?  For the record, I sell products that I have a personal passion for.   I literally could not be be any busier, have only ever experienced growth in sales and have NEVER failed in any project I have taken on and have never dropped a line due to it being unsuccessful.  So why would you say such a thing?

Teyeplayer

Thanks for the info @mixolyd I've never been a fan of Seymour Duncan's either, made that mistake in my early years of playing and well it's not one I plan to repeat -used my ears rather than brand names since (possibly ironic considering my question at the start of this thread).

Also, @RichardsGuitars really appreciate your honesty regarding the comparison between the Tokai guitars and Eastmans that you have in stock, at the end of the day you want to sell both, so to be honest about what has grabbed you since it has been in rather than just going down the 'both are brilliant route' which you could have taken is worthy of respect. Regarding the possible bating or needling so far in the thread, (my teacher voice goes on) don't rise to it dude, it isn't worth it, it is all just opinions. Stay cool. :-)

@customkits you make some mighty fine instruments sir. Where do you sit with the whole price point, value for money, quality of build debate? I'm not sure what you charge for your guitars but I have followed your threads and oohed and aaaahhhd like many of us have here, I have no doubt they are great quality, can you match or better the big boys on price? What are your opinions?

RichardsGuitars

@Teyeplayer  I know know I know I know... but if someone says " If they are truly great, then they will flourish, if not, they will go the way of the other brands Richard has been involved with."  That is totally slanderous.  (is that the right word?)  IE totally made up, baseless, false  - how else can I put it and who wouldn't be totally upset by a comment like it when their whole adult life has been dedicated to finding great guitars?  Its really sad.  Anyway - there is no way for me to avoid it and I think this is now my third attempt to reach out via this forum - we will see if they get their way again....

RE the Tokais.... I have never shied away from saying it as it is - the whole point of my service is honesty so I am not going to tell someone something is amazing to have them travel 200 miles to realise its just "ordinary".  The Tokais are clearly well made (chinese stuff is the normal chinese fair - nothing plus or negative - just middle of the road).  The JAP stuff is hard to come by but the few I have had haven't YET excited me to make want to stuggle to find more shall we say.  Unlike say Maybach which I was prepared to go so far until circumstances just couldn't justify the effort I was putting in - the guitars however were excellent.

I could name many many brands where I have been encouraged to try something - distributors know I will sell a lot of them if I get behind them but the 100% reality is there is very very little to get genuinely excited about.  Which is fine by me as I love the organic nature of "fate".  If you don't force things but always have a subconscious awareness that you are on the look out - great things do come along.

On another thread they are talking about the relaunch of Shergold guitars.  From what I can see they are getting a luke warm reception from initial photos but that is a classic example of having to try one in the flesh.  In the flesh they look amazing, feel amazing and you just do not give the guitar a second thought - you KNOW its amazing.  You will no doubt see one over the coming months and remember my comments about it.  In the photos they do look pretty non descript but sometimes (dare I say like with Eastman or any guitar built to a high standard) you have to get the guitar in your hand before you realize the true value of the guitar and its beauty.  I think the way you feel about a guitars looks can change dramatically after feeling and hearing a guitar.  One begins to support the other and likewise if it sounds a bit crap and feels a bit cheap it suddenly looks rubbish too!

RichardsGuitars

PS sorry if I have taken the thread off topic.... a common trait of mine... rambling.

Lodious

Richard, I'm not clever enough to damage your reputation in anyway near the way you damage your reputation. I won't engage you in private, as I think things should be kept on the forum.

I really haven't got any motivation to start internet wars. Personally, I don't care for your opinions and attitude, but I apologise if you feel my comments have damaged your reputation, and if they come across as nasty, then your probably right and it's not something to be proud of. In my opinion, you have contributed little to the forum apart from patronising people and plugging your wares, so I guess that my comments are not friendly, as I don't regard you as a friend of the forum. 

As for explaining it publicly, I think your output on Gibson, Gordon Smith, Maybach is a matter of public record. Maybe I've misunderstood, but to me, it just sounds like a series of totally dysfunctional relationships. It's probably a lack of understanding on my part. 

I will stay away from your threads in future, (with the exception of a few passive / aggressive LOL's ;-)), I don't want to drive dealers / anyone away from the forum or sour the atmosphere. 

As far as I'm concerned, this is finished, but if you want to carry it on, do it on the forum, not via PM. 

Danielsguitars

Teyeplayer said:

@customkits you make some mighty fine instruments sir. Where do you sit with the whole price point, value for money, quality of build debate? I'm not sure what you charge for your guitars but I have followed your threads and oohed and aaaahhhd like many of us have here, I have no doubt they are great quality, can you match or better the big boys on price? What are your opinions?

I've been working out what I want to build over the last year or so and after building some guitars and getting some opinions I'm definitely a vintage vibe person, feel tone and playability is the most important to me without costing a bloody fortune or gibson money

My price range is between £1750 for a flat top up to about £2500 for a vintage carved top depending on wood and hardware plus paint job, bursts etc and faded like the old ones
Maple flame tops cost alot more and i don't really like them personally, each to there own

I only do nitro laquer finishes with aniline dies which take longer

earwighoney

customkits said:
I've been working out what I want to build over the last year or so and after building some guitars and getting some opinions I'm definitely a vintage vibe person, feel tone and playability is the most important to me without costing a bloody fortune or gibson money

My price range is between £1750 for a flat top up to about £2500 for a vintage carved top depending on wood and hardware plus paint job, bursts etc and faded like the old ones
Maple flame tops cost alot more and i don't really like them personally, each to there own

I only do nitro laquer finishes with aniline dies which take longer

I've played some of @customkits guitars and they are awesome.  

Danielsguitars

Thanks Shubs, glad you liked them

Teyeplayer

It is definitely the vintage route that we all aspire to isn't it (echoing a thread on the conservativism of guitarists). Your prices seem extremely reasonable @customkits, ;particularly considering the time and the labour intensive one off aspect of your work. They also seem quite competitive when placed against the big boys.

If you don't mind, can I ask the thought proccess you go through when you see or pick up these other brands, particularly as someone who builds something similar? Do you fault spot or is it more a case of recognising where corners have beet cut to keep pricing down? In turn are there any particular brands that are lower down the pecking order but blow you away for what they are?

p90fool

There seems to be a bit of history about this particular guitar dealer which I've missed and I can't be arsed to read all the ramblings tbh, but there seems to be a massively overlooked point here.

The reason those Eastmans seem overpriced is not because of like-for-like features compared to more famous brands, they seem overpriced because almost nobody wants them.

You can almost predict the eBay used ads word for word, the desperate "kicks Gibsons ass", "better than the real thing" type stuff, all culminating in the dreaded "reserve not met".

However competitive your feature set and however high your raw materials costs, you cannot just chose to ignore the public demand aspect, and implying that the countless players both unknown and famous are stupid to buy a Gibson guitar is not the way to break a new competitor into a crowded market.

mgaw

p90fool said:

There seems to be a bit of history about this particular guitar dealer which I've missed and I can't be arsed to read all the ramblings tbh, but there seems to be a massively overlooked point here.

The reason those Eastmans seem overpriced is not because of like-for-like features compared to more famous brands, they seem overpriced because almost nobody wants them.

You can almost predict the eBay used ads word for word, the desperate "kicks Gibsons ass", "better than the real thing" type stuff, all culminating in the dreaded "reserve not met".

However competitive your feature set and however high your raw materials costs, you cannot just chose to ignore the public demand aspect, and implying that the countless players both unknown and famous are stupid to buy a Gibson guitar is not the way to break a new competitor into a crowded market.

well said that man.....some of this thread (and I suspect it was the initial intention of it) reads like an  advertorial for @RichardsGuitars and a poor one at that.

RichardsGuitars

Lodious said:

Richard, I'm not clever enough to damage your reputation in anyway near the way you damage your reputation. I won't engage you in private, as I think things should be kept on the forum.

I really haven't got any motivation to start internet wars. Personally, I don't care for your opinions and attitude, but I apologise if you feel my comments have damaged your reputation, and if they come across as nasty, then your probably right and it's not something to be proud of. In my opinion, you have contributed little to the forum apart from patronising people and plugging your wares, so I guess that my comments are not friendly, as I don't regard you as a friend of the forum. 

As for explaining it publicly, I think your output on Gibson, Gordon Smith, Maybach is a matter of public record. Maybe I've misunderstood, but to me, it just sounds like a series of totally dysfunctional relationships. It's probably a lack of understanding on my part. 

I will stay away from your threads in future, (with the exception of a few passive / aggressive LOL's ;-)), I don't want to drive dealers / anyone away from the forum or sour the atmosphere. 

As far as I'm concerned, this is finished, but if you want to carry it on, do it on the forum, not via PM. 

All I can say Lodious is that I appreciate you accepting it may be a case of you misunderstanding the situation and if you ever want to discuss the situations for a fuller understanding and one not completely twisted by internet trolls I would be very grateful for the opportunity to do so.

I would never attack anyone or anything.  I wouldn't provoke an argument as you have just done and for someone who doesn't want trouble on the forum you have an incredible way of going about it.   So far, I have counted THREE people in the space of one thread who I know who have no interest in the thread other than to be bitchy and undermine me.  Obviously that is incredibly sad but it does say more about you than it does me.  I wanted to discuss with you, in private, any issue you have with me in order to put your mind at rest but the fact that you want to discuss it on a public forum is a joke and shows that most people who create arguments on forums do it because it gives them their little moment of "attention".  So you've had yours now.  Where has it got us?  More arguments, more negativity..... cheers.

RichardsGuitars

p90fool said:

There seems to be a bit of history about this particular guitar dealer which I've missed and I can't be arsed to read all the ramblings tbh, but there seems to be a massively overlooked point here.

The reason those Eastmans seem overpriced is not because of like-for-like features compared to more famous brands, they seem overpriced because almost nobody wants them.

You can almost predict the eBay used ads word for word, the desperate "kicks Gibsons ass", "better than the real thing" type stuff, all culminating in the dreaded "reserve not met".

However competitive your feature set and however high your raw materials costs, you cannot just chose to ignore the public demand aspect, and implying that the countless players both unknown and famous are stupid to buy a Gibson guitar is not the way to break a new competitor into a crowded market.

@p90fool PLEASE believe me that ALL I have ever wanted in my life is to be happy and my enjoyment in life comes from helping people and making THEM happy.  I follow budism .  I am MORE than aware that for every action there is a consequence and these consequences are like ripples in the sea - they spread infinitely and regrettably they tend to get bigger over time.   For a true reflection of how I conduct myself on a daily basis, away from the internet trolls please refer here.... http://rguitars.co.uk/pages/richards-guitars-review

You can also see a map of my local (UK) customers over the past 2 years.  Every single number is a guitar sold which has been meticulously hand finished in my workshop.

http://rguitars.co.uk/pages/customer-map

  I personally play test the guitar, personally pack the guitar and I provide online consultation all hours of the day from morning until late at night.  I treat every single customer like my best friend and if my best friend asked for advice it would be exactly the same as what I would share here.

There is a mind set with certain people who just HATE me.  There is nothing I can do about it.  Every single time I come here its the same story.  

I beg you to make your own mind up based on how you find me one to one - and not when I am engaged in a war of words with an internet troll like the guy above.

p90fool

Well you're obviously very passionate about what you do, maybe I'll reserve judgement until I call by your shop. 

RichardsGuitars

p90fool said:

The reason those Eastmans seem overpriced is not because of like-for-like features compared to more famous brands, they seem overpriced because almost nobody wants them.


However competitive your feature set and however high your raw materials costs, you cannot just chose to ignore the public demand aspect, and implying that the countless players both unknown and famous are stupid to buy a Gibson guitar is not the way to break a new competitor into a crowded market.

Eastman in the space of 12 months has rapidly become one of my biggest sellers, the people who buy them are highly discerning jazz players and middle age men who have been around the block and spent a lot of money on Taylor Gibson, Martin etc. 

Was anyone discussing their popularity?  IF we are which we seem to be now I think you will find that in America Eastman is one of the most popular brands out there.  I will provide you some stats - but I have never EVER sold a brand based on how "popular" they are - ever.  My motivation is in FINDING wonderful things and raising awareness of them.  Otherwise I would have stuck with selling Taylor, Martin, PRS, Gibson and dissapeared into the grey mass of characterless online retailers.

I certainly have never said anyone is "stupid" to buy a Gibson - ever.  In fact I have repeated myself to death about how I would buy a Gibson used, how people should buy a good Gibson but just like the fake news Tabloids all the haters want to do is pick out sound bites of what I say and twist it into total garbage.

It is true that if enough people say the same thing it becomes "the truth".   

RichardsGuitars

mgaw said:

p90fool said:

There seems to be a bit of history about this particular guitar dealer which I've missed and I can't be arsed to read all the ramblings tbh, but there seems to be a massively overlooked point here.

The reason those Eastmans seem overpriced is not because of like-for-like features compared to more famous brands, they seem overpriced because almost nobody wants them.

You can almost predict the eBay used ads word for word, the desperate "kicks Gibsons ass", "better than the real thing" type stuff, all culminating in the dreaded "reserve not met".

However competitive your feature set and however high your raw materials costs, you cannot just chose to ignore the public demand aspect, and implying that the countless players both unknown and famous are stupid to buy a Gibson guitar is not the way to break a new competitor into a crowded market.

well said that man.....some of this thread (and I suspect it was the initial intention of it) reads like an  advertorial for @RichardsGuitars and a poor one at that.

It has to become one to defend myself from you - you prick.

RichardsGuitars

ok ok ok !! That really is it this time.  THREE times I have tried.  3 times.  Its not worth the stress. The school boy bullies win again.  Destroy a great conversation but I do accept the common thread is me - so for the forums sake as much as my own this really is the last time I will try conversing here.  I will also remove the links from my site promoting it as a nice place to visit.  I know this place is a good place its just such a shame there are such vial minority spoling it for the others.