Electoral Idiots...

Emp_Fab · May 2017

Is anyone else of the opinion that elections are generally decided by a significant number, maybe even an overall majority, of electoral idiots ? By this I mean people who have no real interest in politics, are too lazy to read any of the manifestos and vote on the basis of any combination of the following;

Who they've always voted for
Who their peers / mates are voting for
Follow the political bias of their chosen media outlet (newspaper / TV etc)
Rejection of particular parties / leaders based on nothing more than knee-jerk hearsay prejudice (e.g. "Corbyn wants the 1970's back")
A desire not to look stupid when discussing politics so they just regurgitate the hearsay and media outlet bias as they don't have to think at all then or risk being asked any questions that might expose their lack of knowledge.

I believe a significant number of people in the UK cast their votes on the basis of these - certainly more than enough to change the outcome of an election. This begs the question whether elections really do represent the "will of the people". I would argue that the coming election will be decided 60% on the points above and 40% on manifesto promises.

In order to make elections more accurately reflect the true will of the people, we have to either get more people to impartially read manifestos and learn how to ignore media bias and peer pressure - an almost impossible task IMO, or remove the 60% above from the polling stations - far easier but very controversial indeed. In an ideal world, I would implement a system that asked you to name three main manifesto pledges from three main parties before you would be allowed to have a ballot paper.

Is it right to deny people from voting if they aren't actually voting on what they believe in ?

Sporky · May 2017

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png

fretmeister · May 2017

Emp_Fab said:

Is anyone else of the opinion that elections are generally decided by a significant number, maybe even an overall majority, of electoral idiots ? By this I mean people who have no real interest in politics, are too lazy to read any of the manifestos and vote on the basis of any combination of the following;
Who they've always voted for
Who their peers / mates are voting for
Follow the political bias of their chosen media outlet (newspaper / TV etc)
Rejection of particular parties / leaders based on nothing more than knee-jerk hearsay prejudice (e.g. "Corbyn wants the 1970's back")
A desire not to look stupid when discussing politics so they just regurgitate the hearsay and media outlet bias as they don't have to think at all then or risk being asked any questions that might expose their lack of knowledge.
I believe a significant number of people in the UK cast their votes on the basis of these - certainly more than enough to change the outcome of an election. This begs the question whether elections really do represent the "will of the people". I would argue that the coming election will be decided 60% on the points above and 40% on manifesto promises.

In order to make elections more accurately reflect the true will of the people, we have to either get more people to impartially read manifestos and learn how to ignore media bias and peer pressure - an almost impossible task IMO, or remove the 60% above from the polling stations - far easier but very controversial indeed. In an ideal world, I would implement a system that asked you to name three main manifesto pledges from three main parties before you would be allowed to have a ballot paper.

Is it right to deny people from voting if they aren't actually voting on what they believe in ?

No.

fretmeister · May 2017

"Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education. It has been well said that no .system of government gives so much to the individual or exacts so much as a democracy. Upon our educational system must largely depend the perpetuity of those institutions upon which our freedom and our security rest."
--FDR

Blame the education system if you must.

I am sure an improved education would have prevented you from seeking the persecution / imprisonment / death of chavs.

CabbageCat · May 2017

Anyone who votes thinking they understand all the factors in play is lying to themselves.

All we have to go on is second-hand information, educated guesses, rough philosophy and trust. One man's knee-jerk hearsay is another man's earnest research and all of it is filtered through our own personal agendas and a hundred past political arguments.

We're all human. We're all stupid. Standing above the rest of the world pretending you aren't feeling ignorant and uninformed might fool some people, but not everyone.

Drew_TNBD · May 2017

You know... just this one time I'm going to sit back and watch everyone else tear you to shreds.

https://media.tenor.co/images/54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c/tenor.gif

Garthy · May 2017

Nope, a free vote for anyone over 18 is as fair as it gets. It's just a pity that people put such little value in their vote. I can't see how you could expect someone to pay income tax but then deny them a vote for those in politics and governance that receive that money.

ThePrettyDamned · May 2017

Jesus christ.

Bidley · May 2017

You can't deny people the right to vote, but there needs to be more (or at least some) education on politics in general.

I didn't learn a single thing about politics in school. I learned about fucking Pythagoras' Theorem, but nothing about how politics actually work. Everything I know, I had to go out and look it up or pick it up from the media or Wikipedia or something. The concept of left and right wing, the leanings of the major parties, what the shadow cabinet/house of lords/commons is, I never got taught any of that.

It doesn't have to be a major subject, just something to teach the absolute fundamentals. I left school about 15 years ago, so maybe it's different now, but I never had any formal education on what is actually pretty important in being a functioning member of society. Which is what school is supposed to form you into.

Relating to the original point though, it just meant I didn't vote at all because I didn't have a clue/didn't care.

Sporky · May 2017

CabbageCat said:

Anyone who votes thinking they understand all the factors in play is lying to themselves.
All we have to go on is second-hand information, educated guesses, rough philosophy and trust. One man's knee-jerk hearsay is another man's earnest research and all of it is filtered through our own personal agendas and a hundred past political arguments.
We're all human. We're all stupid. Standing above the rest of the world pretending you aren't feeling ignorant and uninformed might fool some people, but not everyone.

Izzackerly.

Like pretty much everyone else, I like to think I'm fairly bright, but this politics nonsense is baffling. None of them do what they say they will, and if they did that'd be worse. None of the parties are a good enough match for my many varied and sometimes-self-contradictory positions that I feel voting for them is sensible, and logically, voting isn't worth doing - the effort involved is disproportionately larger than the influence of my one vote. I have never voted for the candidate or party that's won - and that's not something I'm exactly proud of.

The only difference is that I don't think this makes me better than everyone else. I certainly don't think I make better choices, or that I'd be better at the politics thing.

Sporky · May 2017

Drew_TNBD said:

You know... just this one time I'm going to sit back and watch everyone else tear you to shreds.

https://media.tenor.co/images/54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c/tenor.gif

At least chew with your mouth shut then!

hywelg · May 2017

Emp_Fab said:

Is it right to deny people from voting if they aren't actually voting on what they believe in ?

Yes, and thats why the people should never have been given a vote on the EU. They can't be trusted to get it right. And Jeremy will probably ask us again, and Farron will defintely ask us until we get it right.

The ballot paper you ask 10 pertinent questions about politics and government and if voters don't get 7/10 their vote should be eliminated from the count.

Just playing devils advocate you understand......

TheBlueWolf · May 2017

No, and it's not dealing with the problem either.

Politicians are well aware of voter apathy. The EU Referendum is a prime example of politicians saying any old bollocks to snare a few votes. They've got form for not actually doing anything they promise either. You can't blame the electorate for the actions of the people they cast their votes for.

Legionreturns · May 2017

Honestly? I'm so jaded with the whole system anyway it makes little difference. Until / unless we get a more representative voting system the outcomes won't change because there's very little point voting for anyone Except the big two.

Still, the biggest voting block, the one with the power to actually change anything, is non voters. I'm quite keen on the Australian model where voting is mandatory but they get politics classes.

Hoof · May 2017

No, it's not right.

Some folk will vote for who they have always voted for because of track record, core values or past achievements that mean so much then they'd have to do something atrocious to break that loyalty.

Some folk follow their peers because they are not all that interested. But who's to say where the line gets drawn on level of political interest. What if somebody said that you couldn't vote because you didn't meet THEIR standards of interest.

The media issue is the fault of the media, not the individual who is influenced. We are all influenced by media to a degree, whether you read the Star or the Independant, or watch The Wright Stuff or Bloomberg.

Knee Jerk reaction to soundbites? Again, the fault of the media for focusing on them, not the individual.

There will always be some who are less informed than others but again, where to draw the line? Do we need need to pass an interrogation before they give us our little stubby pencil? Would that really be a democracy? How do you think you'd feel if you didn't make the cut? When I hear this adea bandied about it always seems to be from people who assume they WOULD be included.

Sometimes the more factually informed people lack the compassion for those on the recieving end of their watertight, ultra logical solutions to more emotive issues.

Voting for what you actually believe in? Mmm, there will be plenty of tactical voters who aren't voting for what they actually believe in, but they have probably informed themselves well enough to do so.

The vast majority of people who don't really believe in anything don't bother voting. That's why we have such a low turnout in recent elections. I don't think many of those non voters are consciously abstaining because they don't feel that none of the candidates, after careful consideration and much research, are worthy of their vote. The majority of those are the can't be arsed/I'm not interested demographic.

jellyroll · May 2017

There's probably an element of self-filtering. Complete idiots would probably deem voting not worthwhile so not bother making the effort to vote.

Sporky · May 2017

I predict 3 more posts before Emp says he was joking and we shouldn't take it all so seriously.

Col_Decker · May 2017

I'm with Emp. I think every *should* be able to vote but they need to pass a test first. Unless they're women of course.

octatonic · May 2017

Emp_Fab said:

Is it right to deny people from voting if they aren't actually voting on what they believe in ?

No, it isn't.

fretmeister · May 2017

The tiny chance of Emp being called for jury service on something important is a sufficient risk for me to withdraw all support I have for the Jury system.

Reverend · May 2017

Obviously X Factor has shown us they way and all politicians should make a short video about themselves and talk about how they are doing this for their dead Granny. They should then point at the sky when ever they make a point.

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