I'm hopeless when anyone is watching me..

Old_Swanner · March 2020

grappagreen said:

As a technical example of what I can do see this;

That's a bit of a revelation ... great picking! More info is always good.

We're possibly barking up the wrong tree with "Message in a Bottle" then (although my point re. pick directions stands strong)

I had a 50-something year old student who'd been playing since his twenties start lessons in 2011. Within a minute of meeting me he said, "I should warn you, I've had lessons before and I'm not comfortable playing in front of other people". Within a year he was out gigging and these days he's in a couple of bands and running the local jazz jam session!

I've never asked him what the catalyst was but in lessons we tended to focus solely on mechanics and he always seemed comfortable playing in front of me when it was just a case of executing instructions. Any criticism from me was nothing to do with "musicality", rather based purely on whether something was functioning correctly.

We're still pals; perhaps I'll ask him what changed the next time we cross paths.

grappagreen · March 2020

Old_Swanner said:

grappagreen said:

As a technical example of what I can do see this;

That's a bit of a revelation ... great picking! More info is always good.

We're possibly barking up the wrong tree with "Message in a Bottle" then (although my point re. pick directions stands strong)

I had a 50-something year old student who'd been playing since his twenties start lessons in 2011. Within a minute of meeting me he said, "I should warn you, I've had lessons before and I'm not comfortable playing in front of other people". Within a year he was out gigging and these days he's in a couple of bands and running the local jazz jam session!

I've never asked him what the catalyst was but in lessons we tended to focus solely on mechanics and he always seemed comfortable playing in front of me when it was just a case of executing instructions. Any criticism from me was nothing to do with "musicality", rather based purely on whether something was functioning correctly.

We're still pals; perhaps I'll ask him what changed the next time we cross paths.

I've obviously been thinking long and hard about this so I'll recant where I think it all went wrong for me possibly..

About 15 years ago my wife bought me a nice classical guitar as she loves the sound and that you actually play a tune

I was Grade 7 classical as a kid (just think I could actually play stuff like that in an exam environment - can't of been me). I got a tutor to polish things up a bit and try and get my chops back together. Let me tell you the guitar she bought was lovely but had a really big, wide neck; even for a classical gtr. I went for a few lessons which seemed ok and got to the point of working on a couple of mid-range pieces. I practised like mad but struggled with the neck somewhat. I returned for the next lesson and whilst it was OK the teacher was quite critical of the fact that I was cocking up a fair bit. He was sort of insinuating I wasn't working hard enough.. I kept on going but a couple of lessons later having experienced the same things but worse I was starting to dread going. Before I started my lesson the sweating and palpitations were starting and I started to go into a downward cycle just getting worse. He eventually got somewhat aggressive and complained I was wasting his and my time. I then stopped and didn't play in front of anyone until about 3 years ago.

Si

JAYJO · March 2020

Effortless mastery Kenny Werner.
The music lesson. Victor Wooten.
Emotional Intelligence. Daniel Goleman.
These are 3 books I read when I was in a pickle for lots of reasons. I still read them when the kids let me. They're not expensive and you may enjoy them.

Old_Swanner · March 2020

Wow .. that sounds grim and also like he was failing miserably at the job you were paying him for

I subscribed to your Youtube channel and notice you have no videos up other than the two you've posted here which you've marked as unlisted. I infer marking them as unlisted relates to your hang-ups under discussion.

I dare you to mark them as public now (EDIT: And turn comments ON) and to continue posting regularly on there by way of acclimatisation or "exposure therapy".

As I think you've already found it's a world apart from just playing to yourself and IMO very close to gigging but with a safety net. You look good on camera and your playing's great ... will watch with interest!

grappagreen · March 2020

Old_Swanner said:

Wow .. that sounds grim and also like he was failing miserably at the job you were paying him for

I subscribed to your Youtube channel and notice you have no videos up other than the two you've posted here which you've marked as unlisted. I infer marking them as unlisted relates to your hang-ups under discussion.

I dare you to mark them as public now (EDIT: And turn comments ON) and to continue posting regularly on there by way of acclimatisation or "exposure therapy".

As I think you've already found it's a world apart from just playing to yourself and IMO very close to gigging but with a safety net. You look good on camera and your playing's great ... will watch with interest!

Lol - they were public in the past but I was doing some housekeeping and ended up doing something to my account that basically hid all content.

I'll make them public but beware most are just me doing technical exercises when I was working hard on my picking technique!

Si

grappagreen · March 2020

@Old_Swanner ;;

They're all public now

grappagreen · March 2020

JAYJO said:

Effortless mastery Kenny Werner.
The music lesson. Victor Wooten.
Emotional Intelligence. Daniel Goleman.
These are 3 books I read when I was in a pickle for lots of reasons. I still read them when the kids let me. They're not expensive and you may enjoy them.

Thanks mate - I've ordered Effortless Mastery based on @octatonic post but will order the others as well.

Si

Fuengi · March 2020

grappagreen said:

munckee said:

Did you play at water rats? I seem to remember no one being sh1tter than me?

I did and again I f'cked up pretty much everything I had learned..

I also sat downstairs in the room with a few of the chaps and played at about 15% of my actual capability..

If that's true then I'm even worse than I had imagined. We did The Wildhearts track together, right?

I remember feeling like a complete imposter, you guys were all great, I turned my bass down to barely audible level and just tried to remember the root notes - like any bass player!

grappagreen · March 2020

Fuengi said:

grappagreen said:

munckee said:

Did you play at water rats? I seem to remember no one being sh1tter than me?

I did and again I f'cked up pretty much everything I had learned..

I also sat downstairs in the room with a few of the chaps and played at about 15% of my actual capability..

If that's true then I'm even worse than I had imagined. We did The Wildhearts track together, right?

I remember feeling like a complete imposter, you guys were all great, I turned my bass down to barely audible level and just tried to remember the root notes - like any bass player!

It was and you did a great job mate.. I wasn't watching you to be honest as I was trying to blend into the wallpaper

I hope we have another Rats as despite the nerves for me I had a great time and everyone was great..

Old_Swanner · March 2020

grappagreen said:

@Old_Swanner ;;

They're all public now

Ahem ... I added an edit demanding that comments be turned on too ... so we can all come and slate you as more exposure therapy

grappagreen · March 2020

@Old_Swanner ;

I've no idea what I need to do to turn on commenting tbh..

Old_Swanner · March 2020

Looks like your channel's set up as "for kids" ... might be an issue there.

Either way I'll look forward to seeing some more musical (than the technique workouts) stuff from you!

grappagreen · March 2020

Changed that.

You may wanna look at these if you're looking for something musical;

Luke type thang;

https://youtu.be/aKjU3fiVdvo

Rock Improvisation

https://youtu.be/OXyYEY6I1Vk

Ballady type thang;

https://youtu.be/9nsW4nex2RQ

Few Jazzy Bars;

https://youtu.be/liELgfdS_6Y

Old_Swanner · March 2020

It's all fine stuff! I think you just need a band. That way you can get used to playing in front of them before taking it to a wider audience.

IMO open mics add more pressure than playing with your own band as it's normally just a few songs. Even if you absolutely butcher the first few songs of a full gig (and I can't believe that would happen) there is 100% no way you won't get up to par over the course of a 90 minute set.

Structure a set to ensure the first few songs are so easy you simply cannot mess then up and you'll be away

grappagreen · March 2020

Old_Swanner said:

It's all fine stuff! I think you just need a band. That way you can get used to playing in front of them before taking it to a wider audience.

IMO open mics add more pressure than playing with your own band as it's normally just a few songs. Even if you absolutely butcher the first few songs of a full gig (and I can't believe that would happen) there is 100% no way you won't get up to par over the course of a 90 minute set.

Structure a set to ensure the first few songs are so easy you simply cannot mess then up and you'll be away

Thanks for that.

I played in a band for about 3 years and stopped about a year ago when that ended - could probably play at 30% of what I can actually do. never really got any easier and I never got any better in public. Was pretty much always the same outcome except for a couple of occasions when for some reason I just felt different. Not sure why or what I was thinking on those occasions. Maybe that's what I need to focus on a little..

It's something deeper than that and may possibly be something I just have to accept. I'm not going to give up on however.

Old_Swanner · March 2020

grappagreen said:

I played in a band for about 3 years

Got any vids? Is it possible your perception is off?

Rocker · March 2020

@grappagreen, when playing onstage or at home with family/friends, always remember that only a small percentage of people can actually play music. Most or all of the people listening to you would do anything to be as good as you. Even if you think you are playing rubbish and not on your game, nobody really notices. You do because you know how much better you can play the tune but nobody else is aware of this.

I don't know or recognise the piece you were playing in the video above but it sounded better than good to me. Fair dues to you for making the video.

Grunfeld · March 2020

grappagreen said:

If I sat down in front of anyone with the exception of my wife and kids I'd fail this at 100bpm - some 75 lower! That would be because my hands would literally lock up with the stress for some strange reason and my mind would turn to fog....

Si

EDIT: (because my initial thought was that if you were trying to play like in your video then it was way too advanced for a live performance until you had really solid performance skills.) But then remembered you said you played live before. Which makes the current problem interesting.

grappagreen · March 2020

@Rocker ;;;

Thanks for the input. I appreciate that and accept that most people will probably be unaware. Selfishly however I'd like to be able to play live somewhat more at a level that I can actually play at. I'd take 50% tbh but can't do that.

@Grunfeld

Again thanks for contributing. The really strange thing for me is that I actually enjoy performing; I get a buzz from the sensation of being out there etc. mentally in the same way I do with work when I speak to large audiences. I'm not saying I don't get a little nervous apprehension as I do but the feeling of actually doing it is great. The problem is that the mental/physical issues I have just trying to play in the public eye (irrespective of size of audience; I have the same impacts when trying a guitar in a shop or playing in front of some friends) are completely disproportionate to the any nervousness sensation.

I'm going to follow up on the hypnosis thing to see if that can help for sure. As you suggest maybe I should just try and get some gigs playing material that I'd consider simple so that I can just get some hours in working on performance skills..

I posted the videos so that contributors can see that I am actually a reasonably capable player and yet if you plonked me down in front of anyone I'd struggle to throw together a bunch of cowboy chords without fucking up.

Regards,

Si

Grunfeld · March 2020

grappagreen said:

I'm going to follow up on the hypnosis thing to see if that can help for sure....

It really can. I don't know if you saw what I wrote before I edited it out (cos I get sick of the sound of my own voice sometimes), but basically, I've used hypnosis as a clinician to help people with performance anxiety and it can really help. Check with the practitioner that they have experience with working with people with performance anxiety. Have fun!

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