Starting to look very overpriced.

roberty · October 2020

Fender will let you spend anywhere between £120 and £6k for a Strat, quite clever really

BlueStrat · October 2020

Just had a flashback to about 2004 when i bought a US Deluxe Strat is that gorgeous Montego black colour - i bought it new when i was working in the US for a short while and back then it was $2.03 for £1 and it cost me £550 equivalent.
Wow things really have gone up!
wish i could go back and buy a few more

Whitecat · October 2020

"Starting to..." ?

Bigsby · October 2020

roberty said:

Fender will let you spend anywhere between £120 and £6k for a Strat, quite clever really

Amazing isn't it? And it doesn't stop there either - how about £23,000 for a 'Rocky' Strat?

Also impressive that you can actually get a decent 'full fat' Strat with a Fender logo without going far up that price ladder.

TTBZ · October 2020

I feel the same about most Fenders tbh - even the high end ones I've played all have a bit of a cheap feel to me. Think it's just their relatively stripped back nature compared to something like a Gibson or PRS which feels much higher end. I like the idea of a Fender (ie well designed/made, solid workhorse guitars) but it just doesn't feel "special" to play. Maybe a neck with thicker lacquer would have more of a "Gibson" feel than the more stripped down satin finish. But I would never spend over a grand on a guitar either, £4k is just insane imo (especially for a Fender), that's more than my car's worth.

carlos · October 2020

BlueStrat said:

Whats the point of working hard if you don’t get to treat yourself from time to time?
If you can afford a 2k, 3k, 5k guitar go for it and enjoy it.
Your car depreciates far more and far faster than any guitar ever will

I'm trying to speedrun (100%) my mortgage.

crunchman · October 2020

thegummy said:

Barnezy said:

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really.

That analogy would only work if a £1k guitar sounded the same as a 2k one but didn't feel as good or wasn't as easy to play.

A more appropriate analogy would be the top kitchen knife vs one with an equally good blade but a fancy Gucci ornate handle that was over 2k.

A chef would find either just as good to use to cut food with; some would get more pleasure out of owning the fancy one while others wouldn't see any point in paying a penny more for it.

Your analogy might work when comparing a £2k guitar with a £4k guitar, but corners have to be cut to reach a £1k price point.

At £1k, the dealer will probably be buying it in for £600 to £700. They normally buy it from a distributor or some kind of middle man, who also has to make a profit, plus there are transport costs and import duty to think about. The factory gate price on that £1k guitar is probably going to be around £400, and the manufacturer has to make a profit on that, so they have to be able to make for for somewhere around £350.

It's hard to make a decent guitar for £350. There is an awful lot labour involved. I built a guitar at Crimson last year. I didn't quite finish while I was there, and did the wiring at home, but I put around 60 hours into that build. With the tools I have in my shed at home, it would be 80 hours.

Someone who is doing that on a regular basis in a production line environment would be a lot quicker than me, but no-one is going to make a guitar with a nice finish and a really good fret job without a significant amount of work being done by hand.

You can cut the amount of hand work down, but that requires very expensive machinery. I've seen 6 figure sums bandied around as the cost of a plek machine for instance. That's not a one of cost either. There are ongoing maintenance costs with it. The blades go blunt etc.

You are either going to be doing a significant amount of hand work, or buying millions of pounds worth of expensive machinery. Even with CNC, you would need multiple machines to get maximum efficiency. You don't want to have to keep changing the cutting bit and loading new programmes. Again, they will require maintenance, and cutting bits will wear out etc.

Let's say you spend £2m on expensive equipment to automate things, and make 100,000 guitars with it, that's still £20 per guitar just on the capital costs. You still have to maintain that equipment on top of that, and there is still labour involved as somebody has to put the guitar onto the CNC/plek machine, and take it off, and transfer it to the next machine.

If you get that £2m of machinery, then you need a significant floor space that you have to rent and heat. You have a lot of other overheads as well.

Then you start looking at the cost of parts and hardware. I've been looking at online prices for wood for a build. It's not cheap to get good quality wood. To buy decent wood to make a guitar, it's likely to cost me around £100 - even without going for something exotic. Big manufacturers can buy in bulk, but it's still a significant cost.

Decent hardware costs as well. I put a nice set on Gotoh tuners on the guitar I built, but they cost about £70. They are much better than the tuners on my Mexican Fender. That Fender is built to a price, so it gets Fender's generic own brand tuners.

The pickups aren't great on that Mexican Fender either, but to get nice hand wound pickups, or to programme a sophisticated machine to do scatter wound pickups, would cost a lot more.

Likewise the pots. The more expensive pots on my US Fender feel much nicer, and will probably last longer as well, but they don't fit into the budget of the Mexican guitar.

Cheaper guitars tend to have cheap fretwire that is soft and easy to work, but doesn't last nearly as long. I think that's partly for labour saving doing the frets as much as saving on the fretwire itself.

Individually, buying better fretwire, or better tuners, or better pots, or better pickups, or a better quality jack socket might not seem a lot, but add them together, and it takes you well over the £350 or so that you need to be able to build a guitar at to sell in a shop at £1k.

TINMAN82 · October 2020

@crunchman that’s an interesting post. No idea how accurate your figures are but it does sound plausible. Building to £350 for profit on a £1k guitar (if that’s correct) does indeed sound like a tough ask. It’s possible our expectations are slightly high these days.

That said, £1600 still seems a bit high for this family of Fenders, but my only reference is recent price points and a gut feeling!

Whitecat · October 2020

Further to @crunchman's post, always found this article an interesting reference - https://reverb.com/news/guitaronomics-how-much-does-it-actually-cost-to-build-a-guitar

monquixote · October 2020

Devil#20 said:

thegummy said:

The Standard stopped being produced when the Professional (mark 1) first came out. It replaced that line and is the same price-point so the price difference is just a price hike; it's not a higher model.

Personally I don't know why anyone would pay over a grand for a guitar but then again I'm not that materialistic in that I only look at guitars as tools that I can use, I don't obtain any pleasure just from owning something whereas a lot of people do.

I think it's also quite possible that some people have a deep unconscious belief that the more expensive something is, the better it is. That there must be some reason it's more expensive and a disbelief that a company would just price something to make more money without there being a corresponding increase in features or quality.

There's a lot of truth in that. I suspect spending a lot of money on a guitar is inversely proportional to the amount of use it's likely to get too. If you spend a few grand on a Gibson custom shop then putting a ding in it is seriously going to ruin your day. So you drag the beater out instead. I do have a Les Paul standard but I prefer playing my Les Paul studio more and I suspect that's part of the reason. My favourite tele is a bit beat up. It was a bit beat up when I got it to be fair. It's similar to those people who buy and expensive sports car and park it across 2 parking spaces because they don't want anyone scratching it. The worry and stress of ownership detracts from just enjoying it for what it is.

Sod that.

My DGT is bashed to buggery and all the better for it.

I find the idea of people obsessing over relics while trying to keep their non relic guitars minty crazy

It's a tool.

roberty · October 2020

Not forgetting 20% of @crunchman 's hypothetical £1k budget goes straight to the government in the form of VAT

thegummy · October 2020

crunchman said:

thegummy said:

Barnezy said:

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really.

That analogy would only work if a £1k guitar sounded the same as a 2k one but didn't feel as good or wasn't as easy to play.

A more appropriate analogy would be the top kitchen knife vs one with an equally good blade but a fancy Gucci ornate handle that was over 2k.

A chef would find either just as good to use to cut food with; some would get more pleasure out of owning the fancy one while others wouldn't see any point in paying a penny more for it.

Your analogy might work when comparing a £2k guitar with a £4k guitar, but corners have to be cut to reach a £1k price point.

At £1k, the dealer will probably be buying it in for £600 to £700. They normally buy it from a distributor or some kind of middle man, who also has to make a profit, plus there are transport costs and import duty to think about. The factory gate price on that £1k guitar is probably going to be around £400, and the manufacturer has to make a profit on that, so they have to be able to make for for somewhere around £350.

It's hard to make a decent guitar for £350. There is an awful lot labour involved. I built a guitar at Crimson last year. I didn't quite finish while I was there, and did the wiring at home, but I put around 60 hours into that build. With the tools I have in my shed at home, it would be 80 hours.

Someone who is doing that on a regular basis in a production line environment would be a lot quicker than me, but no-one is going to make a guitar with a nice finish and a really good fret job without a significant amount of work being done by hand.

You can cut the amount of hand work down, but that requires very expensive machinery. I've seen 6 figure sums bandied around as the cost of a plek machine for instance. That's not a one of cost either. There are ongoing maintenance costs with it. The blades go blunt etc.

You are either going to be doing a significant amount of hand work, or buying millions of pounds worth of expensive machinery. Even with CNC, you would need multiple machines to get maximum efficiency. You don't want to have to keep changing the cutting bit and loading new programmes. Again, they will require maintenance, and cutting bits will wear out etc.

Let's say you spend £2m on expensive equipment to automate things, and make 100,000 guitars with it, that's still £20 per guitar just on the capital costs. You still have to maintain that equipment on top of that, and there is still labour involved as somebody has to put the guitar onto the CNC/plek machine, and take it off, and transfer it to the next machine.

If you get that £2m of machinery, then you need a significant floor space that you have to rent and heat. You have a lot of other overheads as well.

Then you start looking at the cost of parts and hardware. I've been looking at online prices for wood for a build. It's not cheap to get good quality wood. To buy decent wood to make a guitar, it's likely to cost me around £100 - even without going for something exotic. Big manufacturers can buy in bulk, but it's still a significant cost.

Decent hardware costs as well. I put a nice set on Gotoh tuners on the guitar I built, but they cost about £70. They are much better than the tuners on my Mexican Fender. That Fender is built to a price, so it gets Fender's generic own brand tuners.

The pickups aren't great on that Mexican Fender either, but to get nice hand wound pickups, or to programme a sophisticated machine to do scatter wound pickups, would cost a lot more.

Likewise the pots. The more expensive pots on my US Fender feel much nicer, and will probably last longer as well, but they don't fit into the budget of the Mexican guitar.

Cheaper guitars tend to have cheap fretwire that is soft and easy to work, but doesn't last nearly as long. I think that's partly for labour saving doing the frets as much as saving on the fretwire itself.

Individually, buying better fretwire, or better tuners, or better pots, or better pickups, or a better quality jack socket might not seem a lot, but add them together, and it takes you well over the £350 or so that you need to be able to build a guitar at to sell in a shop at £1k.

Without having to go in to all that theory about numbers and price points, it makes a lot more sense to just look at the market.

What tangible benefits does a 2k guitar have over one that can be bought for a grand?

You listed some hardware drawbacks of a 500 quid guitar but all of them can be upgraded without taking the total over a grand.

monquixote · October 2020

I think a lot of pricing is due to supply and demand.

I recently bought a new AO Tele for £1,350 they are RRP £1,700 and a lot of shops are now selling them for that because sales are sky high and supply is still low.

stickyfiddle · October 2020

monquixote said:

Sod that.

My DGT is bashed to buggery and all the better for it.

I find the idea of people obsessing over relics while trying to keep their non relic guitars minty crazy

It's a tool.

Totally defeats the point of relics imo - it's to get old-feeling guitars that you don't mind using because they're already a bit buggered. I put 2 fresh dents in my latest MJT just putting it together..!

Gerz6558 · October 2020

I noticed when Fender released some new colours in their American Original line early this year they also snuck in a price increase to around 1650. Previously the American Original and Professionals were similarly priced, so I guess Fender saw the release of the new Americans Pros as the opportunity to bring their price in line ince again.

For me that increase of a couple hundred quid has tipped them too far now. As others have said, used is where it's at. For example I managed to snag a beat up used American Original strat for 800 quid a few months ago.

Ironically, I think Fender produces some of the best bangs for buck elsewhere with the classic vibe and player models.

thegummy · October 2020

stickyfiddle said:

monquixote said:

Sod that.

My DGT is bashed to buggery and all the better for it.

I find the idea of people obsessing over relics while trying to keep their non relic guitars minty crazy

It's a tool.

Totally defeats the point of relics imo - it's to get old-feeling guitars that you don't mind using because they're already a bit buggered. I put 2 fresh dents in my latest MJT just putting it together..!

I remember reading something once, probably on this forum, about someone who had bought a relic guitar second hand and was worried that one of the dings was a real ding rather than part of the relic job lol

TINMAN82 · October 2020

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

thegummy said:

Barnezy said:

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really.

That analogy would only work if a £1k guitar sounded the same as a 2k one but didn't feel as good or wasn't as easy to play.

A more appropriate analogy would be the top kitchen knife vs one with an equally good blade but a fancy Gucci ornate handle that was over 2k.

A chef would find either just as good to use to cut food with; some would get more pleasure out of owning the fancy one while others wouldn't see any point in paying a penny more for it.

Without having to go in to all that theory about numbers and price points, it makes a lot more sense to just look at the market.

What tangible benefits does a 2k guitar have over one that can be bought for a grand?

You listed some hardware drawbacks of a 500 quid guitar but all of them can be upgraded without taking the total over a grand.

This is a very well trodden debate on this and every other guitar forum.

The “tangible benefits” depend on the player who has it in their hands. That player will have a reference point based on experience of other instruments.

Of course intangible, subjective factors also contribute to value, mojo and desirability as with most consumables. These things won't necessarily make a guitar sound better.

If you’re preferences genuinely plateau at the £1k price point then great, you’ll save loads of cash. But it’s kind of pointless labouring the diminishing returns point when there are clearly plenty of us who are very happy with their Custom shop Fender and Gibsons, Martin acoustics etc. Would I swap my CS Journeyman relic strat for a sub £1k roadworn because you think its every bit as good as the cheaper option? Clearly not.

skunkwerx · October 2020

thegummy said:

stickyfiddle said:

monquixote said:

Sod that.

My DGT is bashed to buggery and all the better for it.

I find the idea of people obsessing over relics while trying to keep their non relic guitars minty crazy

It's a tool.

Totally defeats the point of relics imo - it's to get old-feeling guitars that you don't mind using because they're already a bit buggered. I put 2 fresh dents in my latest MJT just putting it together..!

I remember reading something once, probably on this forum, about someone who had bought a relic guitar second hand and was worried that one of the dings was a real ding rather than part of the relic job lol

Yup that was here! Scratches on the back if I remember correctly.

Wazmeister · October 2020

I agree with the OP regarding pricing; it has gone crazy mad !!!

I bought a CS 70th Anniversary Broadcaster recently, and it cost £3800. I would have never paid that kinda money, but it was my dream guitar and finish and I enjoy owning it.

Still, a few years ago, my CS Nocaster cost only £1700 - and that was with import duty too...

Man alive, my 2014/15 Masterbuilt Strat was only £2800 (I say only...), and now they can be £6000+.

Crazy, CRAZY prices !!!

crunchman · October 2020

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

thegummy said:

Barnezy said:

The "it's just a tool" apotoach is interesting. I heard someone compare it to knives recently. A top chef may spend £1k+ on a top kitchen knife. Can you taste the difference in the food vs a £5 knife... no. Does the chef prefer using his £1k knife, yes. The same with guitars really.

That analogy would only work if a £1k guitar sounded the same as a 2k one but didn't feel as good or wasn't as easy to play.

A more appropriate analogy would be the top kitchen knife vs one with an equally good blade but a fancy Gucci ornate handle that was over 2k.

A chef would find either just as good to use to cut food with; some would get more pleasure out of owning the fancy one while others wouldn't see any point in paying a penny more for it.

Your analogy might work when comparing a £2k guitar with a £4k guitar, but corners have to be cut to reach a £1k price point.

At £1k, the dealer will probably be buying it in for £600 to £700. They normally buy it from a distributor or some kind of middle man, who also has to make a profit, plus there are transport costs and import duty to think about. The factory gate price on that £1k guitar is probably going to be around £400, and the manufacturer has to make a profit on that, so they have to be able to make for for somewhere around £350.

It's hard to make a decent guitar for £350. There is an awful lot labour involved. I built a guitar at Crimson last year. I didn't quite finish while I was there, and did the wiring at home, but I put around 60 hours into that build. With the tools I have in my shed at home, it would be 80 hours.

Someone who is doing that on a regular basis in a production line environment would be a lot quicker than me, but no-one is going to make a guitar with a nice finish and a really good fret job without a significant amount of work being done by hand.

You can cut the amount of hand work down, but that requires very expensive machinery. I've seen 6 figure sums bandied around as the cost of a plek machine for instance. That's not a one of cost either. There are ongoing maintenance costs with it. The blades go blunt etc.

You are either going to be doing a significant amount of hand work, or buying millions of pounds worth of expensive machinery. Even with CNC, you would need multiple machines to get maximum efficiency. You don't want to have to keep changing the cutting bit and loading new programmes. Again, they will require maintenance, and cutting bits will wear out etc.

Let's say you spend £2m on expensive equipment to automate things, and make 100,000 guitars with it, that's still £20 per guitar just on the capital costs. You still have to maintain that equipment on top of that, and there is still labour involved as somebody has to put the guitar onto the CNC/plek machine, and take it off, and transfer it to the next machine.

If you get that £2m of machinery, then you need a significant floor space that you have to rent and heat. You have a lot of other overheads as well.

Then you start looking at the cost of parts and hardware. I've been looking at online prices for wood for a build. It's not cheap to get good quality wood. To buy decent wood to make a guitar, it's likely to cost me around £100 - even without going for something exotic. Big manufacturers can buy in bulk, but it's still a significant cost.

Decent hardware costs as well. I put a nice set on Gotoh tuners on the guitar I built, but they cost about £70. They are much better than the tuners on my Mexican Fender. That Fender is built to a price, so it gets Fender's generic own brand tuners.

The pickups aren't great on that Mexican Fender either, but to get nice hand wound pickups, or to programme a sophisticated machine to do scatter wound pickups, would cost a lot more.

Likewise the pots. The more expensive pots on my US Fender feel much nicer, and will probably last longer as well, but they don't fit into the budget of the Mexican guitar.

Cheaper guitars tend to have cheap fretwire that is soft and easy to work, but doesn't last nearly as long. I think that's partly for labour saving doing the frets as much as saving on the fretwire itself.

Individually, buying better fretwire, or better tuners, or better pots, or better pickups, or a better quality jack socket might not seem a lot, but add them together, and it takes you well over the £350 or so that you need to be able to build a guitar at to sell in a shop at £1k.

Without having to go in to all that theory about numbers and price points, it makes a lot more sense to just look at the market.

What tangible benefits does a 2k guitar have over one that can be bought for a grand?

You listed some hardware drawbacks of a 500 quid guitar but all of them can be upgraded without taking the total over a grand.

Not the cheap soft fretwire. A refret by someone decent will set you back over £200. Closer to £300 in London where I live.

By the time you do that, and replace all the hardware, you are up to the £1k mark, and maybe beyond if you go for high end hardware.

Then you still have a guitar that's probably made from cheap wood and got a horrible thick gloopy plastic finish. I seem to remember you being from the wood doesn't affect the tone camp, so their may be some logic to your view that you can buy a cheapy and upgrade the hardware, but in reality wood does affect the tone. A lot of knowledgeable people are also of the view that thickness of finish has an effect as well.

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Starting to look very overpriced.

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