Manchester Arena explosion.

joneve

Steffo said:

When kiddies are seen as a target it's obvious that we are not dealing with normal people, conventional methods may need to be set aside for more drastic measures. I have three young children and I am seriously worried.
My wife is utterly terrified and refuses to book holidays anywhere "too crowded". That doesn't leave many options does it?

Lake District? 

sadly, you're not left with much else - EVERYWHERE abroad will be crowded with holiday makers. 

Snap

digitalscream said:

Just out of curiosity, has anyone confirmed that it's Islamic extremism here? Or, in fact, has anyone confirmed that it's even terrorism (as opposed to a loony Ariana Grande stalker, for example)?

There have been reports from The Telegraph of celebratory videos and posts on social media from ISIL supporters, though nothing "official".

Apparently the police say they know the id of the killer, so guess we will have this in the news soon.

Heartfeltdawn

Teetonetal said:

Or humanity just needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and stop being a dick.
Tech is often a gateway to good or bad. We just need to be educated well enough to understand what is right and what is wrong and to know where the mark of decency is.

Criminal abuse of tech is clearly wrong and should be punished accordingly.
Other abuse is morally wrong, but society has to self police that.

I wonder how many times the explosion video has been clicked. The press are not at fault for making it available, we are at fault for consuming it.

Maybe, we've seen so much now that, really it doesn't matter and actually no one really cares beyond those directly affected. 

The only way to stop humanity being a dick is to eradicate humanity. Get all of us in a brown sack, weigh it down with bricks, toss it in the ocean, drown us like the mewling puppies we are. 

Fuck, sorry. Just joined a black metal band as singer and started writing lyrics

The online world is so unpoliced compared to the physical world. I remember the days of CCTV fear, the world of Blair watching our every move, the Criminal Justice Act, and all that. Now there's this digital world that offers so much so easily. It's a world I'm still very wary of. 

earwighoney

guitarfishbay said:

You can't stop the footage being uploaded these days by people who are there. So are we saying the media should have to ignore footage uploaded by eyewitnesses? It'll exist on Twitter and Facebook and YouTube anyway. People are filming things all the time and most have an internet connection so could upload instantly.

I agree with that.  The importance of large media channels has diminished with self publishing mediums like Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat etc becoming more and more important.

Central media and news reporting in many ways is always several steps behind self publishing mediums. 

Snap

@Heartfeltdawn

I think its worse than that. The media is so hysterical and hyperbolic about almost everything, its hard if not impossible to get facts.

I get very sick of it. The Telegraph, The Mail & The Guardian - if you sibscribe to their apps, the notifications are borderline hysterical. Sick of it all tbh. Media? Bunch of gits.

guitarfishbay

Also the footage can help our services.

Taken from the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40010124

"Police are encouraging anyone with footage from the scene to upload it at ukpoliceimageappeal.co.uk or ukpoliceimageappeal.com. Other information can be reported to the anti-terrorist hotline on 0800 789 321."

Drew_TNBD

Cirrus said:

Snap said:

I:m not sure tbh. I think a large part of addressing this is from within the muslim community. They have a better view of this than anyone else, and could be a step ahead in spotting radiaclisation, extremist mosques etc. Plenty of statments coming from various quarters, but a strong condemnation from world leaders in Islam would be a good thing to see.

They typically do, but it seems like their message doesn't get very far. Just a few days ago on my facebook feed something came up from a few years ago - I'd shared a statement from the Muslim Council of Britain strongly condemning the murder of Lee Rigby and calling for all UK Muslims to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the population.

Why does the general Muslim population not do so then? Sure, we get small enclaves which get paraded around as "Look! See! They do care!" and the conversation ends there. The largest British representative council for Islam asks their followers to condemn and stand against these sorts of attacks. But a large majority of UK Muslims don't lean into the rest of the British community in the face of these attacks. They just bury their head in the sand.

And it isn't their fault. Again, we shouldn't take it out on individual Muslims. But they come from and are brought up in a culture where the one true word *IS* the one true word and any deviation and heavily punished. From homosexuality to adultery to disobeying your husband to dating outside of the Muslim community, etc.

By and large they exist in a small self-policing sub-state and many of them don't speak English. They've got no-one to turn to, aren't well educated, and are trapped in a system that abuses their loyality and piety. It's like a mini-North Korea that exists in our country.

You guys talk about moderates but we already know a huge proportion of British Muslims have insanely conservative principles and want to see our British laws changed to reflect their life philosophy. A life philosophy that is taught to them from an early age in mosques and family units across the country - and the world.

I don't have any answers. But you should understand, I am not saying this is a 'Muslim' problem. I am saying it is an 'Islam' problem, and even then taking the argument to it's logical conclusion, I'm not saying it's an 'Islam' problem so much as a 'collectivist' problem. Look at all the things I criticise - they tend to be collectivist ideologies. I was reflecting on that on my way into the office this morning. All of these ideologies seek to cleanse the human spirit of it's individuality and seek to force people to bow down - whether it's a God, a state, a set of principles or overarching philosophy.

This is not about condemning any individual or group of people (aside from the cunt who did this!) - it's about exploring the state of affairs that led to it. I think UK foreign policy is a very infinitesimal part of the picture, and it's often over-egged by people who don't want to face the ideological differences between cultures.

Teetonetal

Heartfeltdawn said:

underdog said:

Two points really:

1) I'm assuming you're of the age to remember how the reporting of African famine was done in the 1980's, reporting that lead to elements like Band Aid coming about. Would you consider that the plight of the starving in foreign climes is something that shouldn't be shown? 


2) You speak of terror and fear being spread by these videos. In the initial wake of events, then there is fear. But within this country it has seldom been long lasting. The London Underground hasn't seen an exodus of users since 7/7. The olympics didn't suffer, major sporting events haven't seen a collapse in audiences. 

I remember band aid and news reports yes, thank fuck all the billions it's raised over the years has stopped the issues in Africa, all the corrupt officials have gone and every penny now goes in to helping those in need, not that there any left because we've donated billions for decades so now it's all sorted.

The reports breed fear, they do, and it's wrong, what happened is terrible and disgusting yes, but we should not fear going to public events because as soon we do we've lost.

Nor should we fear the local Islamic family that run the takeaway in town, or the Asian kids who are in school with our children, because that's what Isis want, they want us to hate every Muslim because then they have the numbers to really fight a war.

No it hasn't stopped the suffering in Africa: that wasn't my point. You hate terrorist news broadcasts because it sensationalises suffering. I'm asking why reporting famine with images of starving children is any different. Let's try cancer kids in Great Ormond Street hospital on some BBC medical behind the scenes show. Where do you draw the line? 

I'm saying that people don't fear going to public events despite recent events in France and here. I don't think the reports breed fear.

What some areas of the media do with their reporting is to give fuckheads some justification to express the prejudicial bullshit they believed way beforehand. Jokes about sand niggers and ragheads were going about way before two planes hit a major US financial district.

Have a gander at some Google searches restricting the term "Muslim terrorists" to 1995 to 2000 ie. pre-9/11. It's quite revealing. Something like this article would sound like the epitome of right-on Guardian thinkspeak. Instead it's from that well-known liberal mouthpiece the Christian Science Monitor (sarcasm intentional on my part). 

You could argue the tone of the piece is what counts.

1 is making awareness of a desperate situation to prompt international aid

2 is sensationalism of an international act of terror and distruction.

I am not saying they shouldn't report it. But there are limits about how far that ought to go. Videos of it actually happening on the national news agency and wall to wall coverage surely a step too far

joeyowen

Arndale has been evacuated after a parcel found in the food court (from what I have read).

MEN reporting it is unconnected, but I can see why everyone is very much on edge at the moment.

Fingers crossed it is nothing

Steffo

joneve said:

Steffo said:

When kiddies are seen as a target it's obvious that we are not dealing with normal people, conventional methods may need to be set aside for more drastic measures. I have three young children and I am seriously worried.
My wife is utterly terrified and refuses to book holidays anywhere "too crowded". That doesn't leave many options does it?

Lake District? 

sadly, you're not left with much else - EVERYWHERE abroad will be crowded with holiday makers. 

Yes! That's where are going. Lovely place not far from Windermere.

RandallFlagg

This is awful, sickening news. My middle daughter is 16 and has just started going to gigs with friends and it makes me sick with fear to think that we even have to contemplate the risk of terrorist attacks in public gatherings. 

stickyfiddle

I have a horrible feeling we're in for decades of this. I can only see a handful of ways it would stop:

- loss of access to explosive materials to cause harm (not going to happen, home chemistry is not complicated and kitchen knives or cars will always be available)
- loss of access to information encouraging and showing people how to cause harm (not going to happen, whatever controls people want to put on the net can be got around with a free VPN and 2 minutes of effort)
- no more people with desire to cause harm (there's every reason to expect the pool of willing volunteers will continue)

So no way out. 

Continued action in Syria won't be helping, but it's too late that stopping would help, and neither would flattening the place and killing everyone, since all the recent terrorists appear to be home grown", at least from Europe, if not the precise countries they're blowing themselves up in. 

On one hand I actually have sympathy for kids who are so pathetic that they find this brain-washing bullshit attractive enough to listen in the first place.

Heartfeltdawn

Teetonetal said:

You could argue the tone of the piece is what counts.

1 is making awareness of a desperate situation to prompt international aid

2 is sensationalism of an international act of terror and distruction.

I am not saying they shouldn't report it. But there are limits about how far that ought to go. Videos of it actually happening on the national news agency and wall to wall coverage surely a step too far

1 also regularly features lengthy telethons where images of starving kids are mixed with Ricky Gervais trying to be funny to an audience wearing red noses... so god knows what tone that conveys.

I didn't think the Westminster attack was sensationalised. There were aspects of it, most notably the bridge video featuring a lady falling and sustaining injuries that eventually ended her life, that were unnecessary. But on the whole the two main channels in my eye line, BBC and Sky News, got it right. From what I've seen this morning from my multi-screen bedroom bunker (give it a month and I'll have guns, beans, and spring water in here), the coverage has been quite restrained thus far. Admittedly my yard stick of over-sensationalized news is the 2003 invasion of Iraq as viewed from an American media perspective so I might have a slightly higher standard for what I consider gonzo to a lot of people. 

joeyowen

Arndale open again, phew

joneve

Steffo said:

joneve said:

Steffo said:

When kiddies are seen as a target it's obvious that we are not dealing with normal people, conventional methods may need to be set aside for more drastic measures. I have three young children and I am seriously worried.
My wife is utterly terrified and refuses to book holidays anywhere "too crowded". That doesn't leave many options does it?

Lake District? 

sadly, you're not left with much else - EVERYWHERE abroad will be crowded with holiday makers. 

Yes! That's where are going. Lovely place not far from Windermere.

Haha! Make sure you go to the Watermill Inn for a meal - they do great food and brew their own (very good) beers. 

It's VERY dog friendly (and dog themed), so if you don't like dogs, you might not want to go. 

I can recommend a number of restaurants in the area too if you want - let me know and I'll PM you some stuff 

57Deluxe

RandallFlagg said:

This is awful, sickening news. My middle daughter is 16 and has just started going to gigs with friends and it makes me sick with fear to think that we even has to contemplate the risk of terrorist attacks in public gatherings. 

#Three Girls - so if you can't groom them, then blow 'em up en masse....!  But -" we all stand shoulder to shoulder and allow life to go on as normal" in our response!! Sickened by our 'liberal elite'.

guitarfishbay

My mate works at the Trafford Centre and just messaged to say there's an armed police presence there today. Let's hope no further attacks.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

I don't have any answers. But you should understand, I am not saying this is a 'Muslim' problem. I am saying it is an 'Islam' problem, and even then taking the argument to it's logical conclusion, I'm not saying it's an 'Islam' problem so much as a 'collectivist' problem. Look at all the things I criticise - they tend to be collectivist ideologies. I was reflecting on that on my way into the office this morning. All of these ideologies seek to cleanse the human spirit of it's individuality and seek to force people to bow down - whether it's a God, a state, a set of principles or overarching philosophy.

Or Roli...

Snap

Drew_TNBD said:

I don't have any answers. But you should understand, I am not saying this is a 'Muslim' problem. I am saying it is an 'Islam' problem,

The two are inseparable: a muslim is someone who follows Islam. Same thing.

I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

Islamic terrorism will not be dealt with until Muslim communities attempt to clear it out. You go to Bradford, Oldham, Blackburn, Rochdale or anywhere where there is a substantial segregated muslim community and they all have pockets (some very large) of extremism. This is in islamic schools, or mosques, or in prayer groups led by radical Imams. The communties know about this, but feel (for whatever reasons) unable or unwilling to deal with it. Until this inertia is dealt with, very little will change.

The threat to us living here is from British radicalised muslims. Until we address the roots and causes of this radicalisation, horrors like the MEN, Westminster, Bataclan will keep happening. The roots are in the communities, centred round a few sceptic clerics and radicals.

underdog

joeyowen said:

Arndale has been evacuated after a parcel found in the food court (from what I have read).

MEN reporting it is unconnected, but I can see why everyone is very much on edge at the moment.

Fingers crossed it is nothing

Yup been an evacuation of a building 2 minutes away from our shop this morning too.