Manchester Arena explosion.

digitalscream

@Handsome_Chris / @joeyowen - it's a misunderstanding, that much is abundantly clear. Let's calm it, eh? Definitely no need for a side-argument in a thread like this.

(for clarity, this is admin-me speaking)

Axe_meister

Snap said:

Fretwired said:

professorben said:

Education and integration are the only only way to combat ignorance and segregation. 

Stop bombing people in Iraq and Syria, have a ceasefire, and try and find a peaceful solution might be a way to stop attacks in the west and final a peaceful solution.

I:m not sure tbh. I think a large part of addressing this is from within the muslim community. They have a better view of this than anyone else, and could be a step ahead in spotting radiaclisation, extremist mosques etc. Plenty of statments coming from various quarters, but a strong condemnation from world leaders in Islam would be a good thing to see.

The trouble is which Muslim community? Those likely to listen are the moderates who probably enjoy our western civilization and can reconcile the two different cultures. How do you talk to somebody living in a bloody desert who is shat on by everybody, who then turns to the radical cleric who appears to be the only person on their side. 

Heartfeltdawn

Teetonetal said:

Reporting is fine. Sensationalizing is not. Do you really need to see a video of the bomb going off' Really?
did you really need to see a video of the car driving down Westminster bridge and the woman falling off.

We've stopped reporting - we actually get the moment, virtually live. 

Imagine if your daughter was killed in that blast - would you really want to see it on video?

And that's where the questions about Westminster came up: what is acceptable? Technology has enabled more and more live reporting. We're really in an age where technology has been allowed to expand and develop without real questions being asked about how it affects us as a species. 

Technology facilitates live reporting of sensitive scenes that some think overstep the line of decency. Technology facilitates scams online as per the recent Ebay thread. Technology allows for far easier communications between members of terrorist organisations. Technology and porn and sexual extortion as reported yesterday. Technology and fake news. At some point we need to judge whether it's tipped too far in favour of technology to the detriment of humanity. 

Cirrus

vasselmeyer said:

Assuming this is Islamic terrorism, and let's face it, the odds are good that it is, I wonder what goes through someone's mind to justify this. Do they think that Allah and the Prophet will  we waiting at the gates of Heaven to congratulate them on killing 22 mums and daughters and severely wounding hundreds of others at a  music event?

First off, I've got to say it's a horrifying event and I had to take a couple of deep breaths on the drive to work as I heard about it on the radio to stop tears coming - I'm sure no sane person would be unaffected by something like this, especially when we're talking about innocent children. Nothing else I write here takes away from that.

I've spent a bit of time trying to understand the modern issue of Islamic extremism. Unlike Drew and others here, I don't think it's a Muslim problem as most Muslims condemn such acts and are decent people. I think it's a human problem, manifesting in some of the cultures, where Islam happens to be the dominant religion, which have survived through European colonialism and the expansion of western ideas. All humans everywhere feel that their culture is normal and decent, and where other cultures' attitudes and beliefs differ from your own, those differences are wrong or even evil. This naturally leads to conflict, and that's evident through all of history. We also have the idea that whatever society we've grown up in is naturally right, or at least heading in the right direction. So we have an innate sense of our own superiority when faced with people who don't think like us.

We have to remember that less than 500 years ago we had in this country an absolute ruler who could get away with executing his own wives just because they didn't give him a male heir. Less than 200 years ago, even as our nation was experimenting with democracy they were shipping millions of human slaves to terrible lives in the Americas. 70 years ago Britain was still in control of 360 million Indians, and there are plenty who believe that atrocities were committed there. Britain drew the map of the modern middle east and central Asia to deliberately weaken the existing societies there over two hundred years. Britain deliberately hooked 40 million Chinese citizens on heroin and then *went to war* with China when their government tried to help their own citizens by banning it.

I don't present these historical facts as excuses for terrorist acts today, or moral relativism, or even liberal apologist hand-wringing. I cannot stress that enough! I present them as examples that humans everywhere can do terrible things, while believing that they are on the side of right/ justice/ god/ Allah.

We in the west believe, broadly speaking, in Liberalism and Capitalism, Socialism, Humanism, Human Rights etc to greater or lesser degrees. We believe in the value of individual human lives and of the need to protect our children. These beliefs form an ideology, essentially a collection of made up ideas about how the world should be. We don't believe we bear responsibility for how our fore-bearers shaped the world, we don't believe our children should be targets for attack. Unfortunately our beliefs are an arbitrary collection of shared ideas and there's nothing that says other people need to share them. They are also, in the grand scheme of human history, an all too recent invention.

So to me it's no real surprise that there are still other ideologies out there that would be completely at odds with it. And as much as we try, we won't be able to understand their way of thinking because it is literally evil to us. The hard part is in understanding that to these terrorist monsters it may seem necessary, to combat the global hegemony which is our culture, aspects of which to them seem exactly as evil - for example, the renouncing of god and religious teachings as a central pillar of our world view, our love of wealth, the way we can so easily divorce our own lives from the things our governments and economies do abroad in far off places...

I'm not going to pretend I understand it. I just think humans are at heart an aggressive, tribal species and this current conflict is just another reflection of that, whatever you think about the link between terrorists, mentally ill people and Islam as a concept...

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. As said up there, it's a tragedy and I'm very sad about it.

underdog

Heartfeltdawn said:

underdog said:

richardhomer said:

underdog said:
Do you think a national news company showing footage of the moment a bomb killed children is needed? It's sensationalism, it's to get clicks on web sites, no respect for victims or their families.

Utter bollocks - we've all seen the footage of the second plane hitting the World Trade Centre - we need to show these outrages for what we are.

Or we could do a Chris Evans and tried to pretend nothing's happened....

Or try to find a politically correct justification for it.

I'm sick of trying to find explanations. Even the IRA had the decency to give warnings prior to most attacks. Blowing up people who have nothing to do with whatever the perpetrator's beef is beyond any rational understanding.

They are terrorists, their chosen wrap is terror, by running these videos repeatedly for the next week it helps instill fear in people, helps spread the terror, helps "them" win.

I don't think we need to see bombs or planes hitting towers or anything like that from any part of the world, it glorifies the events to certain people, it helps radicalise people.

Report the facts, don't make it about entertainment, just report facts.

Two points really:

1) I'm assuming you're of the age to remember how the reporting of African famine was done in the 1980's, reporting that lead to elements like Band Aid coming about. Would you consider that the plight of the starving in foreign climes is something that shouldn't be shown? 


2) You speak of terror and fear being spread by these videos. In the initial wake of events, then there is fear. But within this country it has seldom been long lasting. The London Underground hasn't seen an exodus of users since 7/7. The olympics didn't suffer, major sporting events haven't seen a collapse in audiences. 

I remember band aid and news reports yes, thank fuck all the billions it's raised over the years has stopped the issues in Africa, all the corrupt officials have gone and every penny now goes in to helping those in need, not that there any left because we've donated billions for decades so now it's all sorted.

The reports breed fear, they do, and it's wrong, what happened is terrible and disgusting yes, but we should not fear going to public events because as soon we do we've lost.

Nor should we fear the local Islamic family that run the takeaway in town, or the Asian kids who are in school with our children, because that's what Isis want, they want us to hate every Muslim because then they have the numbers to really fight a war.

Bridgehouse

Personally, I'm appalled. And I see no reason in not stating that on this forum.

However, to debate a general response to terrorism and such like, I think this should be done in a separate thread. 

Cirrus

Snap said:

I:m not sure tbh. I think a large part of addressing this is from within the muslim community. They have a better view of this than anyone else, and could be a step ahead in spotting radiaclisation, extremist mosques etc. Plenty of statments coming from various quarters, but a strong condemnation from world leaders in Islam would be a good thing to see.

They typically do, but it seems like their message doesn't get very far. Just a few days ago on my facebook feed something came up from a few years ago - I'd shared a statement from the Muslim Council of Britain strongly condemning the murder of Lee Rigby and calling for all UK Muslims to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the population.

joneve

Utter shit, I can't imagine what those people and their families must be going through.

Cirrus

Bridgehouse said:

Personally, I'm appalled. And I see no reason in stating that on this forum.

However, to debate a general response to terrorism and such like, I think this should be done in a separate thread. 

I'd be happy for my posts to be moved to a separate thread if the mods feel that's appropriate, I have no intention of being disrespectful to those who tragically lost their lives.

professorben

@joeyowen ;
I think you just scanned and saw that part of my post and got the context wrong. 

I guess a lot lot of people are saying a lot of similar things but meaning it all over the Internet right now. 

I instantly assumed you had the wrong end of the stick. 

We is cool. 

Teetonetal

Heartfeltdawn said:

Teetonetal said:

Reporting is fine. Sensationalizing is not. Do you really need to see a video of the bomb going off' Really?
did you really need to see a video of the car driving down Westminster bridge and the woman falling off.

We've stopped reporting - we actually get the moment, virtually live. 

Imagine if your daughter was killed in that blast - would you really want to see it on video?

And that's where the questions about Westminster came up: what is acceptable? Technology has enabled more and more live reporting. We're really in an age where technology has been allowed to expand and develop without real questions being asked about how it affects us as a species. 

Technology facilitates live reporting of sensitive scenes that some think overstep the line of decency. Technology facilitates scams online as per the recent Ebay thread. Technology allows for far easier communications between members of terrorist organisations. Technology and porn and sexual extortion as reported yesterday. Technology and fake news. At some point we need to judge whether it's tipped too far in favour of technology to the detriment of humanity. 

Or humanity just needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and stop being a dick.
Tech is often a gateway to good or bad. We just need to be educated well enough to understand what is right and what is wrong and to know where the mark of decency is.

Criminal abuse of tech is clearly wrong and should be punished accordingly.
Other abuse is morally wrong, but society has to self police that.

I wonder how many times the explosion video has been clicked. The press are not at fault for making it available, we are at fault for consuming it.

Maybe, we've seen so much now that, really it doesn't matter and actually no one really cares beyond those directly affected. 

Snap

Axe_meister said:

Snap said:

Fretwired said:

professorben said:

Education and integration are the only only way to combat ignorance and segregation. 

Stop bombing people in Iraq and Syria, have a ceasefire, and try and find a peaceful solution might be a way to stop attacks in the west and final a peaceful solution.

I:m not sure tbh. I think a large part of addressing this is from within the muslim community. They have a better view of this than anyone else, and could be a step ahead in spotting radiaclisation, extremist mosques etc. Plenty of statments coming from various quarters, but a strong condemnation from world leaders in Islam would be a good thing to see.

The trouble is which Muslim community? Those likely to listen are the moderates who probably enjoy our western civilization and can reconcile the two different cultures. How do you talk to somebody living in a bloody desert who is shat on by everybody, who then turns to the radical cleric who appears to be the only person on their side. 

I think is a lot more could be done in this country, and other western countries. For example we have Islamic school being investigated for extremist preaching, mosques where the same is going on. This bomber will have likely beein British. I find it hard to believe that there isn't more that could be done from within our own muslim communities to tackle radicalisation and hate preaching.

I am not for a moment laying the blame at their feet, but I am saying that I think they will be better placed to spot it as it arises. I think there is more that senior Imams and community leaders could be doing, and supported to do.

I think the absence of messages of condolence from large Muslim nations is very conspicuous.

99% of Muslims no doubt abhor extremism: stand up and be seen to fight it. Otherwise you will be victimised by knee jerk reactions of ignorant angry people.

We need to fight this stuff hand in hand, all of us, whatever we believe in.

streethawk

It's always looked a vulnerable site, leading up from Victoria to the MEN. 

Absolutely gutted reading snippets of the scenes from last night. Grim. 

CabbageCat

Drew_TNBD said:

Fuck Islam and everything it stands for.

"Everything"?

digitalscream

Just out of curiosity, has anyone confirmed that it's Islamic extremism here? Or, in fact, has anyone confirmed that it's even terrorism (as opposed to a loony Ariana Grande stalker, for example)?

Ravenous

CabbageCat said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Fuck Islam and everything it stands for.

"Everything"?

Ignore him. He's just wearing his fake anger on his sleeve again.

guitarfishbay

Teetonetal said:

guitarfishbay said:

Sorry much as this is horrific we need the press to report on it. We need to discuss it. We need to learn from it. The people who have helped need to be acknowledged.

These events are real, pretending to ignore the reality of it won't help anyone. 

Reporting is fine. Sensationalizing is not. Do you really need to see a video of the bomb going off' Really?
did you really need to see a video of the car driving down Westminster bridge and the woman falling off.

We've stopped reporting - we actually get the moment, virtually live. 

Imagine if your daughter was killed in that blast - would you really want to see it on video?

I agree sensationalism is not acceptable, that isn't what I'm defending. But I think reporting is. Maybe I'm not understanding fully but it seems some people think we shouldn't show footage at all, and I think that's essentially denial of an event.

I saw some footage last night from inside the stadium as we were online when the news broke, back when there was confusion if it was even a bomb or not. I haven't rewatched anything or seen further videos this morning through choice. 

You can't stop the footage being uploaded these days by people who are there. So are we saying the media should have to ignore footage uploaded by eyewitnesses? It'll exist on Twitter and Facebook and YouTube anyway. People are filming things all the time and most have an internet connection so could upload instantly.

Traditional media is slow these days, the story can unfold in real time on social media and that's not going to change if we further censor the media. 

Steffo

When kiddies are seen as a target it's obvious that we are not dealing with normal people, conventional methods may need to be set aside for more drastic measures. I have three young children and I am seriously worried.
My wife is utterly terrified and refuses to book holidays anywhere "too crowded". That doesn't leave many options does it?

earwighoney

digitalscream said:

Just out of curiosity, has anyone confirmed that it's Islamic extremism here? Or, in fact, has anyone confirmed that it's even terrorism (as opposed to a loony Ariana Grande stalker, for example)?

Islamic State have claimed involvement.  

Otherwise it'll be the Mormons.  

Again... 

Heartfeltdawn

underdog said:

Two points really:

1) I'm assuming you're of the age to remember how the reporting of African famine was done in the 1980's, reporting that lead to elements like Band Aid coming about. Would you consider that the plight of the starving in foreign climes is something that shouldn't be shown? 


2) You speak of terror and fear being spread by these videos. In the initial wake of events, then there is fear. But within this country it has seldom been long lasting. The London Underground hasn't seen an exodus of users since 7/7. The olympics didn't suffer, major sporting events haven't seen a collapse in audiences. 

I remember band aid and news reports yes, thank fuck all the billions it's raised over the years has stopped the issues in Africa, all the corrupt officials have gone and every penny now goes in to helping those in need, not that there any left because we've donated billions for decades so now it's all sorted.

The reports breed fear, they do, and it's wrong, what happened is terrible and disgusting yes, but we should not fear going to public events because as soon we do we've lost.

Nor should we fear the local Islamic family that run the takeaway in town, or the Asian kids who are in school with our children, because that's what Isis want, they want us to hate every Muslim because then they have the numbers to really fight a war.

No it hasn't stopped the suffering in Africa: that wasn't my point. You hate terrorist news broadcasts because it sensationalises suffering. I'm asking why reporting famine with images of starving children is any different. Let's try cancer kids in Great Ormond Street hospital on some BBC medical behind the scenes show. Where do you draw the line? 

I'm saying that people don't fear going to public events despite recent events in France and here. I don't think the reports breed fear.

What some areas of the media do with their reporting is to give fuckheads some justification to express the prejudicial bullshit they believed way beforehand. Jokes about sand niggers and ragheads were going about way before two planes hit a major US financial district.

Have a gander at some Google searches restricting the term "Muslim terrorists" to 1995 to 2000 ie. pre-9/11. It's quite revealing. Something like this article would sound like the epitome of right-on Guardian thinkspeak. Instead it's from that well-known liberal mouthpiece the Christian Science Monitor (sarcasm intentional on my part).