My AX8 vs Helix LT Journey

FarleyUK

Yep, seems if the CPU is above 87%, I get that clipping. D'oh!

peteri

Have a spare 10 minutes, so wanted to capture my conclusions on the Helix/AX8 'comparison' or journey.

Some of this has been written before, so apologies for any repetition.

Helix LT

I got the LT back in July, when it arrived I excitedly unboxed it and got to playing. Headphones presets sounded pretty solid and I liked them, and I quickly got some sounds I liked on headphones.

Set-up a 'pedal board' using pre-amps which sounded ok at home.

Went to a rehearsal room, at the time I was looking at it as a replacement pedalboard, plugged it into a LOUD amp. Was disappointed, Helix sounded flat, not bad - but just very compressed and uninspiring.

At that point, I was pretty convinced it would go back.

Partly because of laziness I didn't send it back and a week or two later having read more threads on here, I gave it another go. Spent a lot of time configuring it, making sure only inputs and outputs I needed were 'turned on', made the big knob not controling the main outs, played with input impedance etc.

That and disregarding the controls position (obvious but old habits die hard) really helped, and gradually I got the hang of it. By middle of August I was really enjoying it - had good sounds dialled in, keeping the gain level really low (on the scale, not the sound) had cured the compressed feeling and I found I wasn't using my G2/Strymon main board.

There were a few sounds I wasn't quite getting, notably:

Phaser - just wasn't chewy enough for me, too polite

Trem - not enough 'throb' without it getting intrusive (oh-er)

Reverb - sounded ok, but wasn't great

Off the back of this, I was running my MXR 95 in front of the Helix, that sounded great, and then my Flint for the reverb/Trem in a loop. This actually worked really well and I was pleased, freed up some footswitches too.

To goose my tele - I put my King of Tone in the front end of the Helix, most of the time this was off - but it was there if I needed it.

Off the back of how this was sounding I decided to sell my G2/Pedals - it's a heavy, large box taking up space. Around the same time we decided to move to a more central (but smaller) place, so that became a much better idea.

Because of this decision, I thought, well if I'm going all in I should try Fractal. I didn't want a rack unit (did that in the 80s) but liked the idea of the AX8 as a grab and go board.

Some obvious limitations, including the lack of headphone socket - but 60 day return policy - why not?

peteri

AX8

This arrived just under two weeks ago, great customer service from G66 - they really impressed me.

Out of the box, I preferred the size of the AX a lot.

Started off again trying 'pedalboard' which for me means reverb on most of the time, a crunch, rock and lead sound. Ability to add phaser/chorus/trem and delay

.Only used AX-Edit to do this.

Initially I tried using amps, and turning off cab/power amp simulation. This worked well, and for some sounds I've stuck with this - but as my amp has no loop, you're obviously doubling up tone stacks. So latterly I've gone back for pedals in this configuration.

First points - I found it all much 'easier' to use. When setting the pedals up, the knob values seemed to match more what I'd expect on the real unit. The sounds also matched a little more.

Definitely a much stronger, tighter bottom end.

(Maybe because I've got better at this) - no problem with the over compression.

Drives worked really well for me.

Modulations and reverb sounded significantly better to me than the Helix.

Delay lacked a little, but nothing I couldn't live with - just with the Helix the delay sounded 'right' quicker.

So with the exception of delay the AX was a significant upgrade for me, I found it took me minutes to get sounds just right, almost like the defaults were closer matched to my requirements and then I was just tweaking. As I began to understand using the filters that proved very useful and intuitive too.

The range of amps is astonishing, I really enjoy all I've tried - there's actually too much in many ways, I've not even tried a boogie or Soldano yet for example, but the Fender and Marshall are really good.

Other things I liked, the flexibility in the use of footswitches (not having to set the split between pedals and snapshots as a global for example). And I didn't miss the capacitive footswitches, they're cool -but often I'd trigger them in editing when I didn't want to and it would annoy me.

What I didn't like to so much was the scene automation, although I can absolutely make it work for me - the Helix is clearly more flexible there, and you're not (or I wasn't) so aware of CPU limits as on the AX. You can have 4 amp models compared to 2 on the AX (X/Y) - reality is I can work around this fine.

I really like the X/Y feature and use that a lot - very useful and also saves footswitches. It has caused me the odd hassle, when a 'Y' is set to bypass 'null' and the sound goes dead for example.

Once I got a (£27 cheap!) m-audio headphone amp and I tried the amps/IRs full fat I was amazed, sounds amazing and this is definitely the most enjoyable headphone sound I've ever had. Again lots of bottom end and detail, very responsive and real. And the reverb really shines.

Conclusion

The Helix LT wins on a number of points for me:

• Price, remember this is £7xx!
• Ease of programming without an editor, it really is easy to do
• Analog/tape delay sounds
• Automatically mixing down to mono - like that
• Dedicated Headphones
• Overall it's a very capable unit, some of the effects are still not there, but I could work around. And would be completely happy to have one but...

The AX8 scores higher (for me) in some key areas (again for me):

• Range of amp models, actually it's too much - but they all sound sooo good. It's amazing and means it's very easy to try something new instead of tweaking
• The drive pedals, not an amazing range - but what there is achieves most things, and again - just a great, full sound
• The other (non delay) effects, the chorus and phaser in particular are wonderful
• The dynamic response of the unit, my girlfriend could hear a small difference (she mentioned the bottom end, and a more obvious high end 'tizz' in the Line 6), but that could be worked on and fixed - but under the fingers, it just sounds and feels real
• Configuring footswitches is a dream
• Size of unit
• X/Y - it's wonderful on things like Chorus/delay
• Tuner, the Line 6 one is just too slow - sorry
• I don't need the Flint/MXR 95
• Values match what I think they should be/sound like

So that's what I've ended up with, a Pedal train Classic 2 board, with the AX8, small expression pedal (for wah which I don't use much), Stereo Ditto and King of Tone - it's tight but all fits and sounds great.

I think Line 6 are to be congratulated on the quality/price point - but honestly I just think the AX/Fractal sounds a different league better for me.

What I've found is mirroring a comment someone made earlier in the thread, I could make the Helix sound great with some tweaking, setting certain things a certain way - and I enjoyed that.

The Ax, whilst having tons to learn - I didn't need to learn it, take a JCM 800, stick a TS in front and a delay/reverb behind - barely move off the preset values. Sorted!

I'm still tweaking, but it's fun - and I've not once felt I'm working against the unit. And most importantly I'm enjoying playing more than ever, and have a small(ish) setup I can carry over one shoulder to a rehearsal space.

The only thing I'd sell the AX8 for is if they do one with two CPUs, would be nice to really push parallel amps, or maybe one day a Axe-FX if I go rack.

guitarfishbay

Thanks for posting a detailed conclusion.

There are additional delay updates due with the upcoming Quantum 9 firmware, I think @Jonathanthomas83 has had a go on the beta (which is Axe FX 2 only so far).  I've not tried them yet.  But I do agree the Helix delays are nice.  Hopefully that update will improve the delays for you.

I did honestly spend a good amount of time with the 14 day Helix Native demo (easily 20+ hours) and my conclusion is pretty similar to yours regarding playing feel and how easy it is to dial in a sound.  

John_A

That's been a great read and I'm tempted to grab one, just weighing up the options.  I'd miss the direct recording on the Helix, but I don't use any of the re-amping capability.  The AX8 does sound great, and the form factor is very appealing

peteri

@John_A, I would (Clearly!) recommend it, the try and return offer from G66 is great.

You'd of course lose the re-amping offered by the Helix, guess the question is how often would that be an issue

peteri

@guitarfishbay, thanks your post was the one I referred to, and honestly summarised it pretty succinctly.

John_A

peteri said:

@John_A, I would (Clearly!) recommend it, the try and return offer from G66 is great.

You'd of course lose the re-amping offered by the Helix, guess the question is how often would that be an issue

I think I'll do that.  Bit busy at the moment to make the most out of it, but probably in a couple of weeks I'll go for it.  'My AX8 Vs Helix part 2, coming to a forum near you soon:)

DavusPG

Thanks for documenting your journey - it's been a great read and I've learnt a few things from others who have chipped in which is a bonus!

I'm glad you like it. I'm very conscious of sounding like a Fractal Fanboy, but it the fact that the best part of a year after buying it I'm still discovering new amps and pedals is pretty amazing.

Roland

@peteri @Clarky ;Would you mind if I create a Review thread by copying your conclusions?

peteri

Thanks to all - it's been a pleasure.

@Roland - please it would be an honour

welshboyo

f@ckity, f@ck, f@ck.....

See, reading this has now got me gassing for an AX8 too.....

John_A

welshboyo said:

f@ckity, f@ck, f@ck.....

See, reading this has now got me gassing for an AX8 too.....

I've just had a few hours with my Heix and tha Gas is subsiding a little.  I've also realised I EQ everything to death until it sounds like a JCM 800, quite why I need all those amp models I don't know;)

Clarky

the 6 tap delay is… erm… a bit crap..
you don't have complete control over all taps..

I did manage to create my clean morphs to pad
but the pad tone is not close to what I get with the Axe or VG-99
mostly because the pitch shifter is not good with chords.. it's just not good enough when playing more than one note..

discovered that I can assign the split A/B to controllers.. this is really seriously useful to control the level per snapshot you can send to a path2b loop [which contains a delay in parallel]

the delays lack an 'input-level' control which is a pain in the ass..
in the Axe, this controls how much signal enters the wet side of the delay
so for example… I have a riffing tone that cleans and adds delay via the expression pedal [as it goes heel down]..
I assigned the delay's mix control to the pedal [toe=0 / heel=50]
tow down, riffing is nice and dry..
heel down, tone cleans and the delay comes in nicely..
back to toe down, the delay tails vanish.. which sounds un-natural..
solution:
place the delay in parallel with a Vol block in front of it
set the delay's mix=100
Vol assigned to the pedal toe=0 / heel=100
assign the split A/B to snapshot to route path2a / 2b 75% / 25% respectively for this snapshot
so….
heel down, cleaned with delay..
move to toe down and riff dry but the delay tails will be able to fade and so sounds more natural

the phasers are shockingly poor.. far too polite.. not chewy enough..
the chorus is pretty..
the dual pitch shifter when used for stereo spreading is really rather nice when set +5cents left / -6 cents right, mix in the low 20's.. it's subtle 'seen and not heard stuff.. so you don't notice it until you bypass it and then the tone goes a little flat.. which is just how it should be..

I'm coming to the conclusion that I reckon I can make all of my required tones with all the control feature..
but [a big but at that]… I'll need to split what I currently do with the Axe in a single preset into a couple of presets in the Helix.. I'd need to analyse the tone transitions mid-song to work out if I can find a way of ensuring I don't do preset changes mid-song.. because preset changes will be double tap [hit bank then hit preset to get back to snapshots]..
in a song in 17/8 this will be a major pain in the rear..
I will also need more presets to get through a gig

it's a nice unit and has many great features.. a joy to configure
some of the tones I'm getting are working quite well so I'm convinced that with time and effort I could get it to where I want it to be.. feel wise though it's still lacking something.. there's not enough compression with the hi-gain tones so you have that hi-gain tone, but a mid-gain feel.. not good for a shredder with a very light touch..
and I run out of DSP too quickly.. so I keep getting almost there.. but never quite make it..
the paths are a nice idea.. but I miss the grid so much.. the grid in the Axe is just sooooooo powerful..

so… could I live with a Helix???
yes I reckon I could..
the next question is do I want to [even to save weight on a flight]???
I'm not sure..

Clarky

Conclusion: The Helix unfortunately cannot meet my needs

However, overall I really do like this unit
The areas where it is strong, it is very strong
The areas where it is weak, it is very weak

unfortunately for me, two of these weakness are in areas that I need this unit to be strong:
- Pitch Shifter
- multi-tap delay

I am genuinely quite disappointed.. 
for a moment there I though I had a viable solution that would only incur the loss of a few minor things that I can easily live without..

Jonathanthomas83

@peteri, interested and in hearing what you’re looking for out of the delays. Great write up by the way, thanks.

yep, I tried Q9 beta and it’s definitely made a difference to the analog delays, they’re better, much better.

Sometimes with these things, option paralysis sets in and all delays sound the same, I find that often with the Axe FX, but they’re far and away better than any of my old stomp boxes when set up correctly.

FarleyUK

Yeah, I'd agree fully - seems the ax8 is a much more robust and easier to use (in so far as getting a great sound quickly).

The only downsides I have with it is the CPU limit, and the ax8 edit software often saying communication is paused - even though I've not pressed anything on the physical board.

In still not sure if it's best running pseudo-wetdrywet or stereo with two cabs though...

peteri

@jonathanthomas83 - thanks that's good to know, hopefully it won't be too long!

It's hard to put my finger on - I'm a analogue/tape guy, those are the sounds I always use - I don't like pristine delays, more soft, warm delays that 'merge' into the sound.

With the Helix, I found that the delays did this really well - you can have long delay times with lots of repeats, but they don't stand out and instead sit a little behind the dry sound and compliment it.

On the AX8, I got there - and I'm broadly happy, but it took a lot more tweaking, all too easy for the wet sound to become too dominant and forward in the mix and it took more fiddling.

To my ears the decay on the repeats just isn't quite there. I'm being incredibly picky - but there has to be something I criticise, and to be honest I've got there now and I'm happy - just took more work than anything else.

John_A

Is there anyone anywhere near to Leicester that owns an AX8 and would be happy to meet up and compare with my Helix?

FarleyUK

For anyone who hasn't seen it - here's a chart of the CPU usage on the AX8 per block:

http://www.roxxxtar.com/ax8-cpu-usage-chart

Very handy!

I've just disabled reverb, and my CPU is much happier now.