Are real guitar shops the future

4114Effects

We've had a few music shops come and go in Halifax. All at which stocked a bizzare and limited range of instruments and acessories. 

Thankfully the latest One - Guitarzone - has taken the sensible approach of being a guitar shop and a decent coffee shop all in one. 

I've lost count of the amount of times I've been waiting for a bus and nipped for a coffee there. Then thought "whilst I'm here I'll get some strings or plectrums."

They also stock some interesting items and aren't afraid to try something different. For example they stock Sfarzo strings and were the first stockist to have Cole Clark acoustics in the UK.

Things like this are the only way i see guitar shops being able to survive nowadays, nobody can compete with the box shifters on price. 

ICBM

ToneControl said:

If I win the lottery, I will open the best guitar shop you have ever seen, and make a loss on a permanent basis

If you win enough, you could buy Gibson and do it on an industrial scale.

TTony

4114Effects said:

Things like this are the only way i see guitar shops being able to survive nowadays, nobody can compete with the box shifters on price. 

I agree.

There are different channels, serving different needs and markets.

At the bottom end, you've got the eBay sellers, where you can get just about any cheap tat that you can imagine, through to the semi-real businesses - although these are often just an add-on to their own website shops.

In the main, those website shops are selling boxes on a purely transactional basis.  There are two important differentiators; price, and price.  Whoever is cheapest gets the business (as long as they can deliver, etc).  Most of the transactional sites will never develop any sort of "relationship" with their customer - that's not their business model and their prices can't cover the cost of doing that.

There's a "top end" of that model, which crosses into the market place of people like @guitars4you, WorldGuitars, Peach, and others.  Of course you can buy from a website from those dealers, but you're as likely to buy in person, in the shop.  If you visit them, they'll try to build a relationship with you, understanding what you want and aiming to make you happy when you walk out of the shop - and not just because you think you saved £5 against all the other website shops.

The small independents, like the shops that @WezV and @4114Effects mentioned are in the "relationship building" market.  You'll get to know them, trust them, and recognise the service that they give.  If you can get coffee in there too - well, coffee seems to be an effective attractor for many businesses. 

They'll survive as long as there are enough people around who value service, knowledge and relationships to keep them busy.

Schnozz

I've only bought new guitars for the last three years - Much more satisfied because of it and I got tired of Ebay Sellers 'omitting' certain details...

prowla

guitars4you said:

prowla said:

I go into shops looking for parts and they tell me to use the Internet.

It is an issue now that with so many parts available and so many internet companies doing such a good job that it is a case for most dealers now that caring a good selection of spares is no longer economical - Maybe not so bad for a workshop based business as you are servicing such guitars all the time, especially in a busy store in a busy location ie Charlie Chandlers GUitar Experience

Take machine heads as an example - do you stock the chrome, nickel, black or gold of 3 a side for a Gibson style - do you stock the ones with Grover style kidney buttons or 'snot green' tulip buttons, or indeed metal tulip buttons - What about the snot green tulip buttons with hexagonal nuts or vintage style push in ferules -  some want mini versions of 3 a side

Now similar for Fender 6 aside - vintage style or modern enclosed - locking or non-locking - Then what about Sperzel options

I could easily have 20-30 different types of machine heads in stock and still have not got the right ones for you

A few years ago I had a similar conversation with BK pick-ups and they asked me to be a dealer - I said no as they are doing such a good job themselves that I could not compete with them on  delivery times especially on none stock items - again as an example for a 59 style pick-up - Do I stock vintage wiring or 4 conductor -  zebra bobbins, cream or black, with nickel covers or gold covers - with different wiring options that alone is 10 sets of pick ups to cover all options for both neck/bridge and that is only 1 type of pick-up - I could end up with 50 humbuckers in stock and not have the right ones and as such a special order is required - BK can often deliver next day on stock or custom ordered

I like spares - I nearly opened my shop as a workshop/spares based business with only a few tasty used guitars available - But unless you do it properly you end up with a selection of parts yet always never the right ones - Some parts like a 3 or 5 way Switchcraft Strat switch is an easy option to carry and most/all shops should have them - But even pots now with log/lin, short shaft/long shaft, 250K/300K/500K and you end up with stock sat there for ages and just not economical for many

Sorry but as an overview today web stores do it better - they will probably have hundreds of hits a week across the UK for say a type of switch, knob or pot - I've not sold a 300K long shaft pot in the whole of 2017 or been asked for one so waste of time stocking them (I assume I still have some in a box) - and most of the big 'box shifting stores' just are not interested as you've probably found out

I agree that it is a bit of a conundrum, but if the shops don't get the footfall, then they're on a loser.

Did you know, I've been looking for a long shaft 300k pot for ages?...

...only kidding!

stickyfiddle

I have to say I'm really enjoying a good guitar shop these days. I got a bit weary of them living in London where my locals were Denmark St or trekking to Epsom for Guitar Guitar. 

Now my nearest is a Virgin Megastore in Abu Dhabi which has a few Yamahas and Squiers, there a couple in Dubai which are better but not great, and very expensive. I've made much more effort to when travelling to go find a good guitar shop and try some locally-made pedals (where possible!) and chat with the guys. It's really good. It helps that I'm at an age where the staff take me seriously and actually believe I might buy something!

jeztone2

The big threat to the big box shifters is the government who (on the recommendation of the BoE), are about to tighten up consumer credit laws. I think places like PMT won't last. Guitar Guitar might. 

But that's been the real issue of the last decade. Since 2008 there's been less disposable income sloshing around. The 08 recession killed off a lot of guitar shops. I could see a future Brexit recession doing the same.

if you go to Moscow. There's a lot of shops owned by brands. And yes the Yamaha one is crazy with Jetski's and motorcycles displayed with musical instruments. But I think that's the future. There will be Fender centres, like Sony centres. But perhaps less of them. Or will the bigger companies join forces to save on economies of scale?

Strat54

Not sure Fender have any cash to open a Fender Centre, they just sell online direct instead like in the U.S.

fretfinder

guitars4you said:

ToneControl said:

If I win the lottery, I will open the best guitar shop you have ever seen, and make a loss on a permanent basis

Yes - how do you acquire a £1,000,000 guitar business ? - Have a £2,000,000 guitar business and wait

To be fair - I make a living and enjoy it  but I'm in the autumn of my career - I would not want to start of fresh today with such a business (at least I don't think I would - but then again I know nothing else)

Out of interest Mark, if you're prepared to say, what proportion of your business is with shop visitors compared with online orders?

guitars4you

fretfinder said:

guitars4you said:

ToneControl said:

If I win the lottery, I will open the best guitar shop you have ever seen, and make a loss on a permanent basis

Yes - how do you acquire a £1,000,000 guitar business ? - Have a £2,000,000 guitar business and wait

To be fair - I make a living and enjoy it  but I'm in the autumn of my career - I would not want to start of fresh today with such a business (at least I don't think I would - but then again I know nothing else)

Out of interest Mark, if you're prepared to say, what proportion of your business is with shop visitors compared with online orders?

it is getting more and more mail order - this week alone was 66% mail order - this month is around the same - a few weeks ago at a Leeds Guitar Show I took 2 weeks takings in day but such shows can be hit n miss

Not sure what the likes of Coda and Anderton's ratio is now

mburekenge

stickyfiddle said:

I have to say I'm really enjoying a good guitar shop these days. I got a bit weary of them living in London where my locals were Denmark St or trekking to Epsom for Guitar Guitar. 

Now my nearest is a Virgin Megastore in Abu Dhabi which has a few Yamahas and Squiers, there a couple in Dubai which are better but not great, and very expensive. I've made much more effort to when travelling to go find a good guitar shop and try some locally-made pedals (where possible!) and chat with the guys. It's really good. It helps that I'm at an age where the staff take me seriously and actually believe I might buy something!

I got a looper pedal at that independent shop in Dubai... not cheap at all. But what a crazy location for a guitar shop!

Legionreturns

I see the best chance for local guitarshops if they become like a hub business. It works for loads of other industries (Bike shops are doing this now: Parts and servicing, sales, coffee shop, spin classes and organised rides all with strong social media presence). 

What does that look like for a high street guitar shop? Add a coffee shop, jam room, organised jam nights with a bar, being a trade centre for second hand gear (and taking an appropriate cut / commission), giving lessons ... Whatever it takes to be busy and get people there. That's what sets a business apart from the online box shifters. 

In short, diversify or die 

UnclePsychosis

I'd always prefer to buy instruments from a shop where I can try them out first. I'm also prepared to pay a sensible premium in return.

However it seems that lots of shops haven't yet worked out that they need to offer actual service in return for that premium - and in addition the price they often charge for the things where they're adding no value (pedals, strings, etc) is often ludicrous. 

Voxman

London rentals are so expensive it's almost impossible for any store to trade profitably and still afford to hire good staff and give great service.  All the good ones are way too far away from me to be practical. Within reason I'm happy to pay a modest premium on gear in exchange for genuine, good personal service. There is Soundgarden in Barnet but parking is a nightmare and as a small independent they don't have the stock and don't sell higher-end gear, but they do seem like nice helpful guys.  Electrohill in Palmers Green is OK service wise too (Richard Hill is a good guy), but similarly parking is horrible round there, they are only selling budget & middle of the road guitars/amps, and in truth they are not usually very competitive.  

Years back there used to be a Coda on the outskirts of Barnet I think, and in high street Barnet there was a DV247 - but sadly both closed many years back. It just isn't the same any more.   

normula1

I'm in Sheffield and regularly went into RichTone for a gander and bought fairly regularly too until earlier this year when they p*ssed me off twice in a very short space of time. I've not been in since and have no desire to do so for the foreseeable future, unlike @guitars4you who was a total pleasure to deal with a couple of months ago.

Bridgehouse

I think guitars should be treated differently to other purchases. 

We are rapidly moving to a "no high street we want it delivered NOW" society, and that's fine if you are buying screws or shoes or what nots, but a guitar needs to be seen, played, and heard.

Unless I'm absolutely sure I know exactly what I'm getting, I wouldn't buy an instrument online. Certainly not a new one. 

For something that is going to hopefully be around for a while, and give many hours of pleasure, why not make the effort, go try it and buy "live" ?

Dave_Mc

UnclePsychosis said:

I'd always prefer to buy instruments from a shop where I can try them out first. I'm also prepared to pay a sensible premium in return.

However it seems that lots of shops haven't yet worked out that they need to offer actual service in return for that premium - and in addition the price they often charge for the things where they're adding no value (pedals, strings, etc) is often ludicrous. 

Excellent post, agreed 100%. A "sensible" premium is quite right- 5%, maybe even 10%, but certainly not 50% or more. And also agreed about actually offering that service.

The other thing as well is that they actually have to offer a lot of guitars for you to try. If they only have one guitar that I'm interested in, I'm not buying because in that case I might as well buy online and get more rights. Much like the service thing, it's all well and good saying that "real" shops are better because you can try first, but you actually have to have guitars in stock that people want to try. And not just one, ideally several examples, and also several examples of competitors at the same price range etc..

Bridgehouse said:

I think guitars should be treated differently to other purchases. 

We are rapidly moving to a "no high street we want it delivered NOW" society, and that's fine if you are buying screws or shoes or what nots, but a guitar needs to be seen, played, and heard.

Unless I'm absolutely sure I know exactly what I'm getting, I wouldn't buy an instrument online. Certainly not a new one. 

For something that is going to hopefully be around for a while, and give many hours of pleasure, why not make the effort, go try it and buy "live" ?

I kind of disagree with you. I agree it's maybe different with CDs or something like that, but I find it pretty hard to find shoes I like too. That being said (and the same goes for guitars), I can try shoes far better at home than I can in a shop. It's a lot less pressure, I can try them for as long as I like (well, usually 14-30 days, but that's a lot better than 3 minutes in a shop), I can also try them across several days so that I'm not going by first impressions (which usually are that I want to keep the thing!), and I also don't have a salesperson trying to interrupt my concentration in the hope of talking me into buying the thing.

Bridgehouse

Maybe this is just a generational thing then

prowla

UnclePsychosis said:

I'd always prefer to buy instruments from a shop where I can try them out first. I'm also prepared to pay a sensible premium in return.

However it seems that lots of shops haven't yet worked out that they need to offer actual service in return for that premium - and in addition the price they often charge for the things where they're adding no value (pedals, strings, etc) is often ludicrous. 

Well, the last time I went into a London music shop I was looking for a bit of help on some MIDI stuff and prepared to buy the part if they had it.

Unfortunately, the person I spoke to was unhelpful and belligerent and seemed to want to prove he knew things which I didn't (which was why I wanted the advice!); I complained to the manager, who did get someone more helpful to talk with me, but I didn't buy there.

prowla

Bridgehouse said:

I think guitars should be treated differently to other purchases. 

We are rapidly moving to a "no high street we want it delivered NOW" society, and that's fine if you are buying screws or shoes or what nots, but a guitar needs to be seen, played, and heard.

Unless I'm absolutely sure I know exactly what I'm getting, I wouldn't buy an instrument online. Certainly not a new one. 

For something that is going to hopefully be around for a while, and give many hours of pleasure, why not make the effort, go try it and buy "live" ?

The problem with high streets is that the councils seem to treat them as a cash-cow, charging excessive amounts for parking for you to have the privilege of spending your money with them, so out of town ones are a better option for that.

Another is where they don't have convenient parking; this includes Guitar Village (Farnham) and Anderton's (Guildford) - I've driven past the former of those a few times and I got a ticket at the latter and haven't been back since.

When I go to a shop it is because I want to (or am willing to) walk out having purchased the item, but many seem to either say they can order it or you should look on the internet; the message I take from that is that I might as well just sit at home and order it myself and save the effort. (Dawsons in Reading always do that - I say to myself I'll go and check it out anyway, but I invariably find I've wasted my time.)

I've been into shops looking for an item and had the quizzical "do you mean a _____?" or "could you explain what you mean?", followed by "...sir?". I had this looking for a MIDIsport and a MIDI Thru Box on different ocasions and also jump leads with pancake jacks.

So, it's all well and good shops complaining about declining custom and blaming it on the big bad interweb, but sometimes they need to look at themselves and ask if they know what their service actually is?

My preferred shops are the smaller ones, run by enthusiasts; there are a couple of good ones at Southsea The Guitar Centre and Street Level, Big Deal at Wolverhampton and The Music Man in Reading. I actually like going to them!