Florida shooting ...

Haych

VimFuego said:

For me, the very need of something like that should be a huge wakeup call, a rubicon moment so to speak, an indicator of how far things have fallen.

It’s like the frog in hot water analogy, though. Pop a frog in hot water and it’ll jump straight out. Put it in cold water and heat it up and it’ll happily boil to death. 

If we all suddenly woke woke up in 2018 to a dozen and a half mass shootings society would probably do something about it. 

Its been a gradual increase over the last 40 years or so, so society has slowly become conditioned to it and while some are outraged others, particularly pro gun folk, don’t see a problem. 

I also think that the more mass school shootings that happen, the propensity for them to happen increases. It sews the idea in a twisted mind that shooting up a load of school kids and teachers is a way to let go of internal angst and go down in a blaze of glory. I may not have worded that as well as I wanted so please don’t think I’m rationalising it as acceptable in any way shape or form. 

HAL9000

Well, he’s now suggesting teachers could be armed!

My first thought is that this is a rubbish idea (although I can see that being able to take down a shooter before the police get there could well save lives).

If I was a teacher I’m not sure that I would want that kind of responsibility. And if I should get it wrong I can’t imagine having to explain to bereaved parents that I’d made a dreadful mistake.

EricTheWeary

I watched a bit of that listening thing with Trump and that chap talking about visiting his daughter in the graveyard made me cry. Then Trump talking about teachers carrying concealed guns ( as @HAL9000 mentions above) . Because that’s the problem, not enough guns. 

Im sure there isn’t a simple answer but I feel the man who had $21m off the NRA in 2016 doesn’t have it. 

ICBM

Straight from the NRA wish list.

If armed people at schools are the right solution - which I'm not sure they are, but I admit there may be limited alternatives in a country awash with guns - then it needs to be trained security officers, not teachers. Paid for by a direct tax on the gun industry.

digitalscream

Yep...because teachers carrying guns into every classroom is exactly what inner-city schools need. Not difficult to see what happens next...teacher gets overpowered by a bunch of nearly-adult-sized kids, they take the gun, and...oh look, another school shooting.

stickyfiddle

digitalscream said:

Yep...because teachers carrying guns into every classroom is exactly what inner-city schools need. Not difficult to see what happens next...teacher gets overpowered by a bunch of nearly-adult-sized kids, they take the gun, and...oh look, another school shooting.

There’s really no need to overpower the teacher, since all the kids are packing AR15s... 

EricTheWeary

...or just a  teacher having a bad day suddenly remembers s/he has a gun in their pocket. 

stickyfiddle

Interesting stuff from Rubio in the debate (if that’s the right word). He almost sounded receptive to new ideas, which I assume is mostly just an attempt to make it blow over, but at least a little bit of credit goes to him for actually having the balls to show up. One wonders if he’s also lining himself up for a future run at the presidency by distancing himself as far as possible from the current administration,

VimFuego

carrying a gun, and being able to use a gun effectively under pressure are two different things. This is why the army (especially the arms, like the infantry) and armed police spend a lot of time on firing ranges, training under simulated pressure. When are teachers going to fit in this practise? Will they have to be certified? insured? Will they have similar legal protections as police officers when it comes to the use of force?
If I didn't know better, it sounds like a soundbite reaction made public in a tweet, not that the Don ever does that...

digitalscream

VimFuego said:

carrying a gun, and being able to use a gun effectively under pressure are two different things. This is why the army (especially the arms, like the infantry) and armed police spend a lot of time on firing ranges, training under simulated pressure. When are teachers going to fit in this practise? Will they have to be certified? insured? Will they have similar legal protections as police officers when it comes to the use of force?
If I didn't know better, it sounds like a soundbite reaction made public in a tweet, not that the Don ever does that...

More to the point, will teachers even want that responsibility? In addition to the long hours, crap pay and stress increasing year-on-year, they'd now be expected to be the first line of defence.

Not only that, but every school shooter would then just aim for the teacher first, and everyone else afterwards.

crunchman

I've been a teacher.  Only for a couple of years.  There would be too much temptation to use it on some of kids!

Philly_Q

VimFuego said:

carrying a gun, and being able to use a gun effectively under pressure are two different things. This is why the army (especially the arms, like the infantry) and armed police spend a lot of time on firing ranges, training under simulated pressure. When are teachers going to fit in this practise? Will they have to be certified? insured? Will they have similar legal protections as police officers when it comes to the use of force?
If I didn't know better, it sounds like a soundbite reaction made public in a tweet, not that the Don ever does that...

Here's part of what Trump said:

“So let’s say you had 20 percent of your teaching force, because that’s pretty much the number. If you had a teacher who was adept at firearms they could very well end the attack very quickly. I think a lot of people are going to be opposed to it, I think a lot of people are going to like it. You can’t have 100 security guards in Stoneman Douglas, that's a big school. That would be a situation that is being discussed by a lot of people. You’d have a lot of people that would be armed, they would be ready. They’re professionals, they may be Marines that left the Marines, left the army, left the airforce and they’re very adept at doing that.”

See, it's simple.  Don't worry about training teachers to use these guns they're all going to be carrying.  Just make having the ability to blast a bad guy out of his fucking socks one of the primary criteria for recruiting them in the first place.  There are too many commie pinkos in the teaching profession anyway.

"Have you completed your geography assignment?"
"Sir, no, sir!"
BLAM.

stickyfiddle

"If you had a teacher who was adept at firearms..."

Firearms isn't a verb. Jesus wept (pretty sure he wouldn't have been a Republican..)

Ravenous

EricTheWeary said:

...or just a  teacher having a bad day suddenly remembers s/he has a gun in their pocket. 

"Six of the best!"

Haych

What happens when a teacher with the responsibility to protect kids fails to do just that? What if, under pressure, he/she can’t take a life, can’t pull the trigger, or isn’t in the right place when the shooter is raining bullets in another classroom?

They’ll probably be persecuted by everyone who then holds them responsible for loss of life that could have been prevented. 

I’d also imagine the nightmare scenario for any teacher given that responsibility would be accidentally taking the life of an innocent while trying to protect the innocent. Not that I know from experience but I imagine things happen fast in a gun fight and it would take only one stray bullet in the wrong direction or through a stud wall to end an innocent life. 

I wouldn’t want that responsibility on any level, thanks. 

Ravenous

Haych said:

They’ll probably be persecuted by everyone who then holds them responsible for loss of life that could have been prevented. 

Yes, the USA being what it is, any armed survivors will be sued to hell!

Really it's none of my business what they do, their land is their land, but their two-faced culture as a country is despicable sometimes.

FX_Munkee

Slightly disappointed he didn't suggest banning schools.
TBH I probably wouldn't have been that surprised though.

p90fool

There have been some heroic acts by teachers attempting to protect their pupils from nutters, but expecting Miss Jones from Home Economics to get involved in a gun battle?

If anyone needs shooting it's their fucking stupid president. 

VimFuego

p90fool said:

There have been some heroic acts by teachers attempting to protect their pupils from nutters, but expecting Miss Jones from Home Economics to get involved in a gun battle?

If anyone needs shooting it's their fucking stupid president. 

dear mr cia person, the above comment is not indicative of how we all feel on the fretboard. Many of us are supporters of your fine and upstanding president. Please don't call a drone strike on us.

Paul_C

What schools need are moats - big, deep and full of crocodiles (we all know the sewers are full of them, so they're easily sourced).