Florida shooting ...

ICBM

It also goes a long way to show why a ban on assault weapons would be a big start, even if handguns remain legal. A security officer with a handgun against an attacker with an assault rifle... I have some sympathy for him not going in straight away, if that proves to be the case, although I think he still had a duty to.

For the same reason, teachers with handguns against attackers with assault rifles will very likely just add to the casualty figures. Presumably the NRA will propose that schoolteachers keep assault rifles in the classrooms too.

digitalscream

crunchman said:

Neil said:

It's a foreign country.

 The people voted for Trump.

 They like guns.

And no amount of hand wringing or earnest discussion from liberal outsiders will change that.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/756459/97-percent-americans-want-universal-background-checks-gun-buyers-67-percent-want-ban-assault-weapons

The majority of Americans do want gun control.  That poll is saying 67% want to ban assault weapons.

Therein lies the rub - did you see the CBS Town Hall with Marco Rubio? He actually came across as a pretty genuine guy, and surprisingly had some excellent points. One of them is that the assault weapons ban would be utterly ineffective - it only covers 200 specific models of assault weapon, and leaves out 2000 more because the definition of "assault weapon" includes that it has a plastic stock (I believe). All gun manufacturers need to do to avoid their weapon being termed an "assault weapon" is to replace that bit with a piece of wood, and job done.

Of course, that's how he justifies not bothering with an assault weapons ban at all, and focusing on background checks...when the obvious thing to do is actually to change the definition of "assault weapon". However, should that happen then the NRA will spend the GDP of a small country bribing senators to vote it down.

crunchman

ICBM said:

It also goes a long way to show why a ban on assault weapons would be a big start, even if handguns remain legal. A security officer with a handgun against an attacker with an assault rifle... I have some sympathy for him not going in straight away, if that proves to be the case, although I think he still had a duty to.

For the same reason, teachers with handguns against attackers with assault rifles will very likely just add to the casualty figures. Presumably the NRA will propose that schoolteachers keep assault rifles in the classrooms too.

Not just that.  The teacher is going to have the safety on.  If it is known that they may have a weapon, they will be the first target.  They will never even get a chance to get it out.

If it is a pupil/ex-pupil like this, they will also have a very good idea which teachers carry the guns.

Maynehead

While it's true that if there were multiple teachers in the school with guns, one of them might have been able to stop the attacker; it is also true that when confronted with a threat, and you had the option of pulling out a gun, you would use that option.

Now consider the number of teachers confronting threatening/violent students on a daily basis versus the number of teachers who have encountered school shootings, and the problem will become obvious...

Teetonetal

joeyowen said:

axisus said:

Pretty shocked to hear that there was a security guy there with a gun and he was to cowardly to go in .... 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

Is it fair to say he acted cowardly?  I'd love to say i'd go straight in, but unless it happens I don't really know.

I suppose he did get that job

running towards shots / bullets is never going to be easy is it, I don't suppose any of us know how we'd act. Maybe he has a young family and got scared. Don't judge anyone put in that position.

underdog

Neil said:

It's a foreign country.

 The people voted for Trump.

 They like guns.

And no amount of hand wringing or earnest discussion from liberal outsiders will change that.

What about hand wringing from Americans? Or even Americans who survived the attack last week?

Haych

Teetonetal said:

joeyowen said:

axisus said:

Pretty shocked to hear that there was a security guy there with a gun and he was to cowardly to go in .... 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

Is it fair to say he acted cowardly?  I'd love to say i'd go straight in, but unless it happens I don't really know.

I suppose he did get that job

running towards shots / bullets is never going to be easy is it, I don't suppose any of us know how we'd act. Maybe he has a young family and got scared. Don't judge anyone put in that position.

I feel sorry for the guy. He probably took the job thinking he was an insurance policy nobody would ever need to claim on, if tackling a shooter was ever part of his job description at all.

Like others have said it’s impossible to know how you’d react in the same situation. Hypothetically yeah great, a good guy with a gun, but actually having to go into that situation is a whole different ball game. 

As for teachers with guns, I was listening to a radio excerpt from R5 where a US teacher made a very valid point. The shooter last week went into the school with an assault rifle, body armour and a reinforced helmet. A teacher with a handgun and nothing else is no match for that beyond not wanting the responsibility in the first place. 

p90fool

Teetonetal said:

joeyowen said:

axisus said:

Pretty shocked to hear that there was a security guy there with a gun and he was to cowardly to go in .... 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

Is it fair to say he acted cowardly?  I'd love to say i'd go straight in, but unless it happens I don't really know.

I suppose he did get that job

running towards shots / bullets is never going to be easy is it, I don't suppose any of us know how we'd act. Maybe he has a young family and got scared. Don't judge anyone put in that position.

Exactly, nine years ago he got a quiet, part time job as a glorified janitor in a nice school with a crappy wage. 

He had a handgun against a heavily armed lunatic firing 45 rounds a minute, and he may have saved a couple of kids by embarking on suicide mission, but I bet that bit wasn't in the job ad he applied for. 

Philly_Q

VimFuego said:

crunchman said:

VimFuego said:

joeyowen said:

axisus said:

Pretty shocked to hear that there was a security guy there with a gun and he was to cowardly to go in .... 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634

Is it fair to say he acted cowardly?  I'd love to say i'd go straight in, but unless it happens I don't really know.

I suppose he did get that job

this, it's difficult to judge the guy, I'm not sure I'd be willing to put my life on the line for what is a job. 

From what I read he was the police liaison officer in the school.  He'd been there since 2009.  It looks like more of a community role than a security role.

this I didn't know, but it may explain why he didn't act. He was hardly a highly trained close protection officer. And as FX munkee says, it does show that just having armed people there won't necessarily stop an attack. 

And this is an immediate example of exactly the kind of personal/public dilemma which would occur if they armed teachers.

This is a cop and he didn't know what to do.  How much worse for a teacher?  They train, qualify and get a job in order to teach, not to be a security guard, judge and possible executioner.

axisus

OK, I hold my hand up, the word 'cowardly' was wrong to use. Apologies to the guy and I am attempting to kick myself up the arse as we speak. Having said that, if I had a gun and knew how to use it I'm pretty sure that I'd want to try and protect kids in a school. I guess we don't truly know how we would react unless we are in a situation

Neil

underdog said:

Neil said:

It's a foreign country.

 The people voted for Trump.

 They like guns.

And no amount of hand wringing or earnest discussion from liberal outsiders will change that.

What about hand wringing from Americans? Or even Americans who survived the attack last week?

If there's enough hand wringing in the USA and people desert the NRA in protest then maybe some things will change. 

I have American relatives and spend a fair amount of time there every year and although everybody is appalled when massacres like this happen I really think that many people have become hardened/callous to this stuff over time and just carry on rather like the British public did at the height of the IRA mainland bombing campaign.

It probably won't happen to you or your loved ones but it is always lurking in the background. 

crunchman

It will change eventually.  The demographic of the NRA membership is predominantly middle aged and old white men.  Give it 25 years and large numbers of them will have died off.  Hopefully something happens sooner than that though.

p90fool

crunchman said:

It will change eventually.  The demographic of the NRA membership is predominantly middle aged and old white men.  Give it 25 years and large numbers of them will have died off.  Hopefully something happens sooner than that though.

I was passing through Brescia a while back and was the only guest that night in the hotel who wasn't an American arms dealer or NRA rep. 

It certainly looked pretty much like SAGA holiday coachload, except the clothes were even worse. 

Neil

crunchman said:

It will change eventually.  The demographic of the NRA membership is predominantly middle aged and old white men.  Give it 25 years and large numbers of them will have died off.  Hopefully something happens sooner than that though.

It is certainly something to hope for although TBH I see a lot of youngsters and women involved too. 

Women I guess possibly feel more vulnerable and purse guns are very popular, but of course they are not assault rifles.

sinbaadi

If the guy had been provided with a firearm, and his responsibility includes protection of students and teachers from attacks with weapons, then he has a duty.
Put it this way, he will spend the rest of his life living with the choices he made in those moments and I do not think he will be proud.
I'm not saying he should have charged in and got himself killed, but he should have done something and had his own children been in there, I doubt he would have stayed outside like that.

The fact that we are having this debate is just proof that it's so incredibly messed up.  I feel very sorry for kids that grow up in that atmosphere, and the way the US constitution is used in an almost biblical way is quite ridiculous.  The fact that you are quoting an amendment shows that it is not set in stone.  It should be based on the way Americans want to live their lives today.  People understand the consequences of getting rid of as many guns as possible.  If they want to do it, let them do it!

HAL9000

I see the NRA is now, true to form, accusing gun control advocates of exploiting the Parkland school tragedy. This, and Trump singing to the NRA's tune unfortunately means that, probably, nothing will really change.

digitalscream

HAL9000 said:

I see the NRA is now, true to form, accusing gun control advocates of exploiting the Parkland school tragedy. This, and Trump singing to the NRA's tune unfortunately means that, probably, nothing will really change.

Which, I think, is part of the reason that Rubio has done a sudden about-face and is totally in favour of more gun control. I spy a presidential run in a couple of years' time.

stickyfiddle

digitalscream said:

HAL9000 said:

I see the NRA is now, true to form, accusing gun control advocates of exploiting the Parkland school tragedy. This, and Trump singing to the NRA's tune unfortunately means that, probably, nothing will really change.

Which, I think, is part of the reason that Rubio has done a sudden about-face and is totally in favour of more gun control. I spy a presidential run in a couple of years' time.

Absolutely this. Rubio is effectively positioning himself as "the only Republican who wants to save the kids", which could be very powerful if Trump and/or the GOP decides not to go for 2 terms of the current regime. 

Surely the "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children" brigade can be as noisy as the "we love our guns" brigade?

Bucket

HAL9000 said:

I see the NRA is now, true to form, accusing gun control advocates of exploiting the Parkland school tragedy.

I find the irony simultaneously hilarious and unfathomably depressing.

Ravenous

HAL9000 said:

 

...This, and Trump singing to the NRA's tune...

Singing to their tune? He's more like their poodle.  (He has the hair already.)