Axe_FX II Rigs, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Digital Modelling.

paulmapp8306

gearaddict said:

Not easy this modelling stuff eh?

Seems to only make sense if you really need lots of complex switching. Or you needs loads of different amp sounds for recording. Not sure it makes a lot of sense for your basic pub band guitarist (e.g. me!) - unless you're in a tribute band where you need to replicate whole albums of tones and effects or something.

It's funny how it's now much cheaper to have a nice basic valve amp than it is to go down the digital modelling route. Who'd have thunk it?

Not always the case.  I tend to use 3 tones only these days (unless experimenting), BUT Ive nailed those tones to the perfect ones I have in my head.  Cant do that with a real amp - it does what it does with some basic tweekability.

IMO, if you cant find an amp  your perfectly happy with (lets face it - who does or we wouldn't keep changing them - theres always a little niggle somewhere) - the AFX lets you find it. 

Handsome_Chris

@PaulMapp8306 is very correct there. @Clarky is modding amps like a good 'un at the mo. I don't think that he's been anyway near a soldering iron to do it either.

I modded a plexi a few weeks ago by uping the input and master trims. It all came out very Soundgarden.

Clarky

I've modded a JCM800 and a MkIIC so far and turned them into screaming monsters..

my new modded MkIIC is a shredders dream.. to my ear it's like a warmer / thicker 5150 mkIII but with better definition..

Drew_TNBD

Clarky said:

I've modded a JCM800 and a MkIIC so far and turned them into screaming monsters..

my new modded MkIIC is a shredders dream.. to my ear it's like a warmer / thicker 5150 mkIII but with better definition..

Clips??

Clarky

I'll see what I can sort out...

guitarfishbay

Right I am still planning on doing some Axe FX -> Matrix -> Cab recordings at some point.  My idea is to do 'in the room' style recordings, rather than close mic'd tones.

Should I use an LDC (AT4040, NT1A), SDC (SM81) or an XY stereo recorder (Zoom H1).

Also is there any preference for position out of - a few feet in front of cab pointing at speakers VS putting the mic at head height to where you'd play at home (eg head height sat down) angled towards the cab.

Any comments? I'm hoping to get across the 'in the room' experience, not close mic for a recording tone. 

guitarfishbay

Well, my time to record the clips literally went down the toilet.  I broke the toilet flushing mechanism on Sunday so the time I should have had to make clips pissed itself away.  Shit happens.  Ok enough puns.  It will happen at some point (and I'd aim to cover a couple each of clean, mid gain, high gain amps) but it might be a while now, we're about to start recording an album so that has to take precedence.

In other news - Firmware 16 beta is out.  Now the dilemma is, do I stick with 15, or try 16 for the album my band is about to start recording.  I know it makes sense to stick with what I know - but once I start recording the real guitar tracks I don't think I'll change firmware for quite a while.  I kind of feel like I should try out 16 and see how I feel about it, I can always roll back to 15 if I don't like it.

Anyway here is the beta thread - http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/90797-axe-fx-ii-firmware-16-00-public-beta-update-beta1-now-available.html

16.00
Improved Amp block cathode follower model. New model includes effects of grid resistance which results in more accurate clipping characteristics.
Improved Amp block virtual power tube model. Improved algorithm more accurately models plate current vs. grid voltage yielding a more accurate transfer function which results in more pleasing power amp distortion and improved feel.
Improved Amp block virtual power tube interaction with virtual output transformer. This yields improved low-frequency accuracy and feel. Furthermore this improves the output waveform accuracy resulting in much improved interaction with the cabinet block. IRs should now sound fuller and more resonant with more “thunk” and “knock”. The Low Res parameter in the Spkr tab can be used to increase or decrease the amount of knock.
Added Power Amp Hardness parameter to Amp block. This parameter controls the hardness of the virtual power tube grid clipping. Models default to “Medium” and any presets created with earlier firmware versions will be set to Medium upon recall.
Changed Layout grid navigation so that wraparound does not occur when using Left/Right nav buttons. Up/Down nav buttons will still wrap around allowing easy access to the beginning/end of the grid. Also, the previously highlighted block will be selected when moving into the grid from the Input or Output blocks using the Left/Right nav buttons.
Fixed attaching modifier to Crossover block XOVER FREQUENCY overwrites parameter value display in other blocks.

Note Cliff said - "Note that the official Version 16.00 will have much more but those things being worked on aren't ready yet. We felt that these improvements were something that shouldn't be kept from the users in the interim."

Handsome_Chris

I hope that formant shifting will be added to the pitch block. I like the whammy sound of the pitch blocks, but I'd also appreciate harmonies that sound great.

Handsome_Chris

I like this AF2 magic: It scared the bejabbers out of the dog.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/90859-formant-trickery.html

guitarfishbay

I updated to 16.01 last night and felt the response of my 5153 Red DI patch was a bit firmer.  It felt like there were subtle changes to the tone, seems like a little less low end and maybe a little more push in the upper mids but I don't think the tonal changes were drastic (could well even be placebo as I played one, then the next, didn't record direct A/Bs), but it I did feel like the response changed.  I quite like it actually.

Did anyone else see this?

Tone match of Axe FX 5153 to a real 5153.  

Cliff on the scale of the graph:  "IIRC each dot is 2 dB giving a range of 40 dB (+/- 20 dB). There are two pixels between each dot. So each pixel would be 2/3 dB."

Clarky

I've not taken fw16.. I'm too deep into an album to be able to make the change..

I'm still on 15.06

guitarfishbay

Yeah makes sense. I've just started doing guide tracks this week for pre-production for our album so I've still got the chance to experiment. Come the real guitar tracking/reamp sessions I'm locking myself in.

Clarky

if I was less than 1/2 way through the album, I'd have take fw16, dialled-in to it and then re-reamped everything..

I've just finished track 4 out of 8.. lmao.. so that's the event horizon hit, I'm sticking at 15.06 until this album's done..

guitarfishbay

So I got some time to mess around through a cab at home today - no clips yet, but I've started dialling in some patches for home use (and for some mic'd demos).

I finally found some data on the LF resonance for my cab, and it turns out I've been doing it all wrong. Annoyingly I can't load the Axe FX forum at the moment but unless you have a Rectifier 2x12 it doesn't make any difference. 

In my first Axe FX post I said "Freq 90hz, amount 4.4 and Q 1.7.  Default amount is 5 and default Q is 2 (narrower) - this seems to give a weird OTT flub on my Recto patch which isn't really punchy in the right way.  Reducing and widening the effect seems to make it more natural - but I want to test again in more rooms to make sure it isn't just exciting room response."

And I still feel the same way about the flub at a lot of stock values, having higher amount at lower frequencies does produce flub for me and lowering it stops that...  I have now raised the frequency to 114.5 hz.  I have a Q of 2 and an amount of 7.5 or so...  I need to test it in different rooms to make sure it isn't just room response but in the room I finally seem to have tight thump.  Hallelujah.

Going forth with dialing in amps at home using these settings (I'm keeping the frequency and Q fixed, amount is ranging from around 7 to slightly above), some stuff I've noticed -

Recto 2 Red Modern with a boost now sounds awesome, if you keep the master at 1.  The new default in V16 is lower than V15 IIRC, but it is still too high.  Honestly, 1 sounds 'right' to me, much higher and it sounds pants again.  But the bass feels more like a Rectifier now, hurray!

Recto 1 Orange Normal sounds amazing through my cab.  Again I'm keeping the master low, about 2 IIRC.  This is good news, because my main band preset is based around that amp!    I'll need to re-dial that patch in again using the new settings at band volume, which annoyingly is now 2 weeks away due to the drummer going on holiday.

Clean/mid gain amps seem to have warmth now (a lot of their default resonance frequencies are lower, due to open back cabs).  I got some nice stuff out of a Tweed (can't remember which) and the AC30 TB.

What is funny... I said to Drew recently that I discovered the Atomica high sounded pretty decent through my cab.  Looking at the speaker resonance tab today it was on 110hz and an over 5 amount at Q 2, not a million miles off the settings I'm now using instead of the 90hz settings I was using before on some more 'dialed in' patches.

What is cool is that even with the same or very similar speaker tab settings all the amps feel and sound different.  Boosted Recto Red still has more low end than a boosted 6505 (well, more low end than everything which I'd expect) and the Engls are tight like I'd expect.  I don't know if that is how the science is supposed to work (using the same settings each time), but it was sounding good to me.

I want more time to play but I need to get restringing for tracking tomorrow, our singer is coming over to press R and spacebar for me on Logic as I track some DIs.  It is much easier to concentrate on playing if someone else does the computing, and another set of ears is always good for quality control.  It is only fair he does some work anyway!  )

Clarky

I see your query was answered by Mr FAS over in the other HQ..

Drew_TNBD

So I'm selling my Axe. After what has been nearly 6 months of constantly oscillating between loving the thing and feeling frustrated that it didn't sound the way I want and that I couldn't quite decide on a way to deploy it live, I have decided it isn't for me. For studio recording, I prefer the Kemper. It's just more instant and usable, and sounds just as good (sometimes better actually, don't hate me! *gulp*) and for live, I'm still not ready to give up on valve amps.

Saying that, I did use my Kemper at last nights band practice. I took some profiles of my Diezel D-Moll through the effects loop - so without the poweramp, cab, and microphones - and then put it back through the poweramp of the Diezel. Sounded amazing. It took 10 minutes to do the three profiles, a further 10 minutes to refine them, and then 2 minutes to figure out how to setup the three channels in performance mode.

It's just so ridiculously quick, the Axe can't even touch it I'm afraid to say. 6 months of tweaking with the Axe, and I still don't have a fixed set of patches that I'm happy to record or perform with. It's not the fault of the Axe. It's just me. I'm not suited to that many options all at once, I start getting really OCD about it and fall down the rabbit hole. The limitations of the Kemper actually set me free.

Saying that, I'm not moving over to the Kemper for live performance. I want to go back to a Fryette Sig X for live performance, it's like an itch I cannot scratch. I wont be satisfied until I get it out of my system. But, the Kemper can sound just as good as the Axe through a valve power section, you just need the direct profiles rather than the full preamp+poweramp+cab+microphone profiles.

It's been an interesting experience. I still rate the Axe FX quite a bit. I've gotten some really good recordings with it; but the cost in time and mental energy is too high for me. I know that sounds utterly retarded, but it is what it is.

Thanks to @Handsome_Chris, @Clarky, and @Guitarfishbay for putting up with my dumbarse and my neuroses over the last 6 months, haha!

Clarky

no worries matey.... when you think about it, all the multitude of different rigs all hit different needs.. and so there's no single thing that'll work for abasolutely everyone..

as you know I've been a rack-fx guy pretty much forever.. that said, not long after getting the VG-99, I did come very very close to getting either a VH4 or a Herbert.. as in.. just about to get out the credit card sort of close... those amps tick soooo many boxes for me.. but there are a couple they don't / can't.. which is why I head to FAS instead...

btw - know anyone that wants to buy a VG-99 with rack mounting kit and an FC-300 controller??

guitarfishbay

I think it is the right choice for you Drew.

At the end of the day it is all about what works for the individual.  You've pretty much tried everything and know what works and what doesn't - so the fact you're going back to the Sig X is all part of the journey.  If you hadn't tried the Axe you'd have always wondered what if?

... so @Handsome_Chris what happens to the thread title now? )

guitarfishbay

Out of curiosity,

@Clarky how have you dialled in the speaker resonances on your live patches?  I'm discovering that having the correct frequency dialled in makes a massive difference to punch... if anything, I think I'm getting too much punch at the minute but after discussing it a bit on the FAS forum I've been using incorrect Q and value (too much of both lol).  Compared to my old settings which had the resonant frequency quite a bit lower there is a big difference in feel now.

guitarfishbay

For reference, the data provided by FAS forum member psycle_1 for the Mesa Rectifier 2x12 cabinet is

Low Freq=114.26hz
Low Res=5.79
Low Q=3.173