From Digitalscream & TTony

Strangefan

Does this mean we can now un-ban Drew?

vale

how about the classifieds section is repurposed as an informal pooling point for members' listings formally posted on other free or paid platforms (gumtree, fbook, ebay, reverb).

that way if members want to use this site (pms or openly) to work out some private deal between themselves they can (discounted, trades, fee-less transactions between members who trust each other, etc. things formal sites discourage or ban).
but it relieves the mods of all the depressing & time-draining arbitratiion & name-calling sh*t.

the same basic functionality the classifieds currently offers (fee-free dealing & trades between members), but site mods don't need to feel obliged to play judge/jury/executioner if & when private deals go tits up. it's formally an off-site deal.

members chuck an ad up on a big (free or paid) platform & then post a link here with 'contact me if you want to work something out'. what goes on from there is their deal but the mods are not obliged to police it

an idea?

LuttiS

octatonic said:

Ultimately I want this place to succeed and prosper, not to just exist.

I'd like to think that's what we are all wanting. Have a wiz.

There's been a lot of suggestion, many of them good imo. For now though, i imagine best thing is to get on with it, let @Roland & @Jalapeno see how they get on with just the two of them and then they can decide on next steps based on the increased work load. If they need help, from the responses seems they only have to ask

m_c

Are the classifieds that big a problem?

I know it involves a bit coding, but on the new discussion page, how hard would it be to have it so it adds a couple lines of bold text with the basic rules, when you select to post in a classifieds forum?

ToneControl

octatonic said:

ToneControl said:

I think that posting in the classifieds should be for long-standing forumites who have posted a lot of non-sales text

Surely the whole point is to sell things between people who know each other a bit, if it's anonymous strangers who are new, then it's just ebay with no fees and no comeback

For local people?

definitely

vale

m_c said:

Are the classifieds that big a problem?

I know it involves a bit coding, but on the new discussion page, how hard would it be to have it so it adds a couple lines of bold text with the basic rules, when you select to post in a classifieds forum?

it's not having rules but the interpretation & enforcement of them that causes problems.
if you have rules you need courts to interpret & enforce the law.
if you have courts you need judges to cast judgement & determine sentence.

in every dispute those judges will inevitably be siding with one party against another, which often ends in sh*t flinging.

i understand if people don't want to be the one getting sh*t thrown at them.

Sporky

Nunogilberto said:

I’m not sure I agree with not being able to criticise businesses for fear of the forum losing commercial ties etc - otherwise, we’re starting to sound like Guitarist mag. Plus, a forum should be a place where you can relate a bad buying experience or offer your opinion on a place you’ve had dealings with...

At the risk of speaking for other people, I don't think that was ever a problem.

When a small number of people think it's OK to make nasty assaults on the character of the public face of a shop, that's a problem.

I don't think any of the retailers think they never make a mistake, and sometimes things being mentioned in public gets mistakes fixed faster. But actually picking on individuals is rather different, and my understanding is that it's that (particularly with Andertons) that buried the idea of a bit of a partnership. Why would any shop want to support somewhere with members that openly abuse them?

NelsonP

Nooo! This place is great. I've had so much good advice from here from people who have tons on knowledge and are willing to share. 

@TTony and @digitalscream ; - so sorry to hear how grating it has become for you. Enjoy the break.
Hopefully that's all it is and you'll come back with your new business model. I will look forward to that.

m_c

vale said:

m_c said:

Are the classifieds that big a problem?

I know it involves a bit coding, but on the new discussion page, how hard would it be to have it so it adds a couple lines of bold text with the basic rules, when you select to post in a classifieds forum?

it's not having rules but the interpretation & enforcement of them that causes problems.
if you have rules you need courts to interpret & enforce the law.
if you have courts you need judges to cast judgement & determine sentence.

in every dispute those judges will inevitably be siding with one party against another, which often ends in sh*t flinging.

i understand if people don't want to be the one getting sh*t thrown at them.

What bits of
Price (and/or specific trades) must be included.
Photos are highly recommended (they're not really needed for everything, but they are needed if you want sell something on looks)
No Fakes.
Don't delete sold items.
Are open to interpretation?

Having looked at the rules, I do think the current rules could be a bit better worded to remove doubt about what is mandatory, and what is recommended. Must/Should are not the clearest of terms.

stickyfiddle

m_c said:

vale said:

m_c said:

Are the classifieds that big a problem?

I know it involves a bit coding, but on the new discussion page, how hard would it be to have it so it adds a couple lines of bold text with the basic rules, when you select to post in a classifieds forum?

it's not having rules but the interpretation & enforcement of them that causes problems.
if you have rules you need courts to interpret & enforce the law.
if you have courts you need judges to cast judgement & determine sentence.

in every dispute those judges will inevitably be siding with one party against another, which often ends in sh*t flinging.

i understand if people don't want to be the one getting sh*t thrown at them.

What bits of
Price (and/or specific trades) must be included.
Photos are highly recommended (they're not really needed for everything, but they are needed if you want sell something on looks)
No Fakes.
Don't delete sold items.
Are open to interpretation?

Having looked at the rules, I do think the current rules could be a bit better worded to remove doubt about what is mandatory, and what is recommended. Must/Should are not the clearest of terms.

Exactly. I agree there is scope to clean up the must-haves from the nice-to-haves. i.e. what will get you banned and/or your thread closed, and what will just result in your ad getting no responses.

Boromedic

If the guys decide to increase the number of mods, or enlist a mod per section then I'm also more than happy to throw my hat in the ring. I've never done it before but I'm more than willing. 

As for the classifieds, personally I think it would be a shame to lose them. Maybe instead of a blanket charge there should be a rule that you have to have a minimum 50 posts elsewhere or you pay a donation to The Fretboard to list ads, (I dunno £5-10 perhaps) eliminates the need for a bank account and it's just donations like we've all done for raffles etc.. If you don't have enough posts and don't pay, then your post gets deleted. It sounds simple enough although I'm sure there are flaws in the method!! Feedback welcomed!

fandango

I suggest the "minimum posts" rule for the Classifieds is so open to abuse as to not worth bothering with. It won't take long (half an hour?) to rack up 50-100 posts/comments. Each of which would likely be one word long, and a waste of space as to be worthless. Better would be a time-based probationary period before posting classifieds. But then you wouldn't get any comments. A combination of the two would see a burst of very short comments upon joining, then a gap to the end of probation. Satisfies the rule, but misses the spirit.

Voluntary monetary subs would get ignored, whilst forced subs to advertise might work. Making advertisers contribute might up the quality of items offered. It might stop the freeloading. It might cut speculative feeler ads. It might reduce the quantity of ads for cheaper items. Lot's of mights there without any guarantees.

PolarityMan

Sporky said:

Nunogilberto said:

I’m not sure I agree with not being able to criticise businesses for fear of the forum losing commercial ties etc - otherwise, we’re starting to sound like Guitarist mag. Plus, a forum should be a place where you can relate a bad buying experience or offer your opinion on a place you’ve had dealings with...

At the risk of speaking for other people, I don't think that was ever a problem.

When a small number of people think it's OK to make nasty assaults on the character of the public face of a shop, that's a problem.

I don't think any of the retailers think they never make a mistake, and sometimes things being mentioned in public gets mistakes fixed faster. But actually picking on individuals is rather different, and my understanding is that it's that (particularly with Andertons) that buried the idea of a bit of a partnership. Why would any shop want to support somewhere with members that openly abuse them?

Yeah cos Anderton's have never posted anything on youtube?

Sporky

PolarityMan said:

Yeah cos Anderton's have never posted anything on youtube?

Is there a difference between Youtube and here that might explain why they carry on posting there but not here?

Emp_Fab

modellista said:
TTony will always be the spiritual leader of this place. 

I always thought he was a bit of a cult.

sev112

If having a bank account to receive payments to post in classifieds is a prob, then pick a Forum charity, and require posters to make an annual (?) fixed donation and have to post their receipt to have access to classifieds.

Probably even more difficult to administer, but nicely altruistic

thanks for for all your commitment guys, this is a great place 

Modellista

Sporky said:

PolarityMan said:

Yeah cos Anderton's have never posted anything on youtube?

Is there a difference between Youtube and here that might explain why they carry on posting there but not here?

This is just a personal comment and I have no authority whatsoever.  But to me it seems sensible to keep this particular topic an Andertons-free zone.

Roland

RedRabbit said:

Just on an immediate, practical point - is there a plan to add more mods?  I can only imagine it being a two man team will add to the stress of trying to keep this place in line.

Yes, the moderation team will increase. Not so much because of the day to day workload, which isn’t huge, but to provide holiday and sickness cover, and to provide balancing opinions to @Jalapeno and myself. It won’t happen immediately.

m_c said:

Are the classifieds that big a problem?

No. I read every new Classified thread. It doesn’t take too much effort. 

crunchman said:

The Classifieds are tricky.  They do drive more traffic to the site - and some of the users who start out in the classifieds do contribute elsewhere.  Obviously as the site gets bigger, that creates it's own problems for the mods, but without new users the forum will probably die.

The issues with the Classifieds is that we haven’t concluded how to treat them.

The Classifieds started as a service to members, who otherwise would have been swapping things in other areas of the forum. They do bring people to the site. Many people here have said that a google search brought them to the forum, and they stayed to chat. The other side of that coin is that an increasing number of new joiners try to take advantage of a non-charging market place. It doesn’t work for them because we generally don’t buy from them. It doesn’t work for the members because it clogs the classified page with badly advertised, optimistically priced items. It doesn’t work for the moderation team because that’s where a lot of our time has to go. There are solutions to this, but they are mostly at odds with the light touch, low impact, open decision making ethos with which the forum was set up.

When we had problems with Off Topic we were able to address them through the introduction of Politics and BCD. 

Strangefan said:

Does this mean we can now un-ban Drew?

No. Our management approach isn’t going to change. I don’t know any better than anyone else whether Ttony and digitalscream will come back refreshed after a break, whether they will return with ideas for forum 2.0, or whether they won’t. However this isn’t a new government tying to take the country in a different direction. 

AlexC

I haven’t been on the forum for a week, so apologies if anything I’m going to write here has already been written. Great shame that two valued mods feel the sour outweighs the sweet here. I joined about a year ago and have found some great folk here alongside valuable information, support, knowledge and just generally interesting musical banter. 
Humour does not always translate well when written - so something meant as a jocular remark can look odd as words on a screen. There’s a fair bit of that, I think. And that can kick off... 
Which segues nicely into a sporting analogy. It’s all too easy to get personal taste mixed up with a solid fact. If people enjoy playing bass or guitar (or any instrument) why can’t they be accepting of all aspects of that. No - you won’t like ALL aspects, but to foam at the mouth because someone likes a band you don’t or - heaven forbid - a model or brand of guitar that you don’t is just... well, childish. It’s not team Gibson or Team Fender. Or Team Metal vs Team Funk.
So, we live in a culture now where thousands of people promote themselves or their wares on the internet. So be it. You don’t like a shop, player or reviewer; why waste time putting them down. I don’t enjoy football. Therefore I’m not about to post on the World Cup Thread here and start slating those that do, or comment on a subject I have little knowledge of and less interest in.
From my personal experience the most accomplished musicians are those who practice, make do with what they’ve got (can afford) and have open ears and an open attitude. 
If someone wants to rant and rave (about anything) maybe Twitter would be more appropriate. Or a male only pub crawl around the bitter watering holes of some decrepit town.
It would seem two of the designated drivers have had enough.
And who can blame them?

Brocco

If the purpose of the classified section (if it  is to remain) is to facilitate 'friendly' trades between genuine members of theFB I do feel that imposing a (low) limit on the number of trades permitted by forum members could be an effective (and simple?) way to eliminate unwanted and problematic trading activity. I for one am not on here to buy and sell gear other than very occasionally.