From Digitalscream & TTony

mudslide73

Sorry to see two legends hang up their boots. It's not a job I'd want to do so I understand. Having met you both I also know you are mild mannered and not confrontational blokes. Please come back if you feel you can soon. 

Jimbro66

FWIW I'm more inclined to favour a minimum number of frets before being allowed to post classifieds. I mean genuine frets, not the trolling/sarcastic type (which is another matter in pressing need of addressing). A minimum fret count might deter those who come here only to sell/buy but conversely it might encourage them to contribute meaningfully to discussions and hopefully remain as active members.

A simple minimum post count would inevitably lead to meaningless one-word posts by clever dicks playing the system IMO.   

ronnyb

Having read this thread and through a previous post in it being directed to the 'Admin / mod interventions I have to admit i had no idea all this went on behind the scenes to keep this forum going. It's no wonder that TTony and Digitalscream are stepping down, i'm not sure i'd want to be a moderator even if i was paid to do it. That said, the Admin / mod interventions thread was a very entertaining read.  

fandango

Another thought ...

That folk get uppity at the merest hint of criticism or disagreement, intended or otherwise, is indeed a problem, and one that used to be easily dealt with prior to social media & anonymity came along. I think we had thicker skin and a sense of proportion back then. Maybe there's a need to examine why we have a problem extending common & polite courtesy to people we've never met face to face.

One idea (earlier in the thread) that I did think very sensible, was the idea of only posting disgruntlements AFTER they've been dealt with and resolved directly between the parties. No sounding off as it happens. Just a simple summary of the matter upon conclusion, including how it was resolved. Using tFB like Twitter and Facebook is probably part of the problem that the founders felt was dragging tFB down.

I've learned some lessons over the last few months as I've had the time to post more comments. I have grown to appreciate that "don't be a dick" is actually a very good guide. As in ... all things are possible, but not all things are helpful. If there's any takeaway as a result of the reasoning behind the original post, it is to try being genuinely helpful & encouraging from here onwards. Sincerity rather than jocularity.

Bridgehouse

ronnyb said:

Having read this thread and through a previous post in it being directed to the 'Admin / mod interventions I have to admit i had no idea all this went on behind the scenes to keep this forum going. It's no wonder that TTony and Digitalscream are stepping down, i'm not sure i'd want to be a moderator even if i was paid to do it. That said, the Admin / mod interventions thread was a very entertaining read.  

Some of @TTony ‘s posts in the Admin/Mods interventions thread are some of the funniest, wittiest and proper laugh out loud things I’ve ever read on here. 

He has a way with words, that’s for sure. 

The sad thing is, as time goes by, you can sense the frustration at yet another user being banned for abusing the classifieds and replying with f*** c*** etc.

I have met Tony and Lee in real life on a number of occasions - I spent a whole two days with the pair of them at the Guitar Show this year on the fretboard stand. You couldn’t hope to meet two more approachable, kind and tolerant people. For them to be this disillusioned really does mean we all need to have a good look at what we post, how we respond to posts, and what we give/take out of this place.

TimmyO

octatonic said:

Jalapeno said:

The Classified threads are a PITA tbh. 

People don't/can't follow the rules and there's a pervasive sense of entitlement, and outright rudeness when people are pulled up on let's face it minor misdemeanours.

Re the rules- I agree but that isn't really going to change unless the forum changes in some way.

There are other free platforms (other forums, gumtree).
Very few people read the classifieds rules before posting, much in the same way I don't read the iTines user license agreement when I update the application.
Our requirements we mandatory will never be adhered to unless the method for posting is based on a form that has mandatory fields and then once posted people are locked out from deleting content, but that would also make it impossible to adjust content.

So the available option are relax the rules, or change the method for posting to be stricter or live with the current situation.
Alternatively, get rid of the classifieds.

Other forums charge for classifieds postings (Basschat).
I floated this idea a long time ago and it was not considered.
Maybe it is worth considering now?

I'd be fine with paying, but here's the thing: not paying HERE.
This is the 2nd time that someone running the forum has announced they are departing either for good (then come back) or taking a break. 

And I'd expect to be able to upload a pic to a paid ad. Including from mobile. 

PolarityMan

Roland said:

The Classifieds started as a service to members, who otherwise would have been swapping things in other areas of the forum. 

Thats a bit of a retcon, my recollection was it was because of how active the MR folk were on the MR classifieds. I still miss stuff like nocasters complete rig swap every 2 mins  So while yes it is a service as you described it was carried over from the old place.

Strangefan

Roland said:

Strangefan said:

Does this mean we can now un-ban Drew?

No. Our management approach isn’t going to change. I don’t know any better than anyone else whether Ttony and digitalscream will come back refreshed after a break, whether they will return with ideas for forum 2.0, or whether they won’t. However this isn’t a new government tying to take the country in a different direction. 

Yeah erm..... that was a joke..... 

beed84

I don't contribute as much as others but I do come here every day. In fact I treat it like my Daily Mail and enjoy reading other peoples nonsense.

But in all seriousness, enjoy your break @TTony and @digitalscream it sounds like you both need it. I'm sure the new mods will hold the fort just fine. And FWIW I think there's a genuine sense of community spirt on this forum and that its members would be happy to do what's necessary in order to regain the vision you had. As others have said, this is one of the best forums on available so do take comfort in that at the very least.

Take care both

EricTheWeary

The possible ways of changing the classifieds have all been discussed before. By and large they mean more modmin input, can be got around and/or set up a set of expectations that TheFB can't match. They are unregulated classifieds, no one is able to step in if you are ripped off or receive shoddy goods. If you look at JMB or Shpock or eBay or Facebook groups,etc, they are full of crap ads and people just apply their own cognitive filters and only respond to the ones that don't seem mental. Maybe we are just over thinking it.

 Maybe there should not be a right to reply - classifieds that can only be added to by the OP. If you want to display your wit and wisdom to the world by posting on someone's ad then you can't. You could only PM them and they can respond or not or report it if it's bad enough. But as no one else can see your witty bon mot then you probably won't bother anyway. If people post shit ads and get no responses then they'll either get better at it or leave. There just won't be that intermediate step of someone posting ' you need pictures and a clear price mate' ( and I have been that person). 

Well, I'm sure we'll come back to it again a few more times...

PolarityMan

maybe we should go for a retro feel and all classified threads get turned into tiny 3 line blocks of text and compiled into a pdf that gets emailed out to everyone once a month.

No other guitar forum has that level of nostalgia!

duotone

@digitalscream
@TTony ; 

Really appreciate all your time & efforts in getting this forum up & running. Good luck in your time away from it, I hope it helps you both & gives you the time to put into other pursuits.

All the best!

bacchanalian

I find myself reluctant to post on the forum these days as there does seem to be an awful lot of moaning and inappropriate language**, that may be an attempt at humour but is not. Although I have benefited greatly from the forum over the last 18 months or so, including one purchase that I am still delighted with, it must be depressing for the mods.  It reminds me of the Stewart Lee sketch where you have a shower of shit dumped into your living room every so often. 

In parallel to this thread there has been a thread closed because, in the real world, it would be the equivalent of going into somebody's shop, lifting something from the shop and then standing on the pavement outside shouting, 'Look at this, it is bollocks. And another thing, I know best.' 

There is a thread this morning where the first response was, 'I don't know about the pickup, but that reviewer is a cretin'. 

I know that it the way of the internet but there is no reason why this cannot be an oasis in an ocean of shite.  (Edit: I am worried that our grammarians may point out the inaccuracy of my metaphor. It should really be island rather than oasis but I think that finding an oasis better conveys the feeling of relief of somewhere without conflict. Can you have a dessert full of shite?
p.s. grammarians, I spelt desert incorrectly, on purpose to make the veins in your foreheads throb. Is it spelt or spelled?)   

Kudos to @digitalscream ;;; and @TTony for running the forum for 5 years. Hopefully your departure will be the trigger for members to reflect on what they want a guitar forum to be about.

**By inappropriate, I don't mean saying poo or wee wee. I mean how normal humans should address other normal humans whether that be on here or in your real life.   

boogieman

Jimbro66 said:

FWIW I'm more inclined to favour a minimum number of frets before being allowed to post classifieds. I mean genuine frets, not the trolling/sarcastic type (which is another matter in pressing need of addressing). A minimum fret count might deter those who come here only to sell/buy but conversely it might encourage them to contribute meaningfully to discussions and hopefully remain as active members.

A simple minimum post count would inevitably lead to meaningless one-word posts by clever dicks playing the system IMO.   

Unfortunately that’s going to take a massive amount of work for the mods. Somebody will have to monitor fret counts. It can still be open to abuse (just get a mate to lol or wis your posts). And who decides what is a “meaningful” comment anyway? I’m pretty sure half the stuff I post isn’t meaningful.

Leaving aside Lee’s disillusionment with some of the members and content here, if the majority of the aggro for the mods is being caused by the free classifieds, there’s two options that I can see. Either get shot of them completely or start charging to deter the free loaders or chancers who can’t be bothered to read the rules. 

hubobulous

Thanks for everything, but unfortunately you can only control yourself and your own actions, not those of idiots that you come into contact with. Its a hard task and even harder to work out how to continue the community feel. Only you know, for example, how much of the crap comes from Classifieds for example. I agree that a fee to sell on there makes sense. For the most part, its guitars or pedals or amps, so a £5 contribution per thread would deter some who are looking for a quick flip.

You will always have freeloaders. That's just society as a whole. Making sure that they don't impact on you is the trick.

Legionreturns

@bacchanalian I totally agree with you! 

On the plus side, you got enough "wiz" for that post, that you'd be allowed to post in the classifieds under my new regime  

crunchman

hubobulous said:

Thanks for everything, but unfortunately you can only control yourself and your own actions, not those of idiots that you come into contact with. Its a hard task and even harder to work out how to continue the community feel. Only you know, for example, how much of the crap comes from Classifieds for example. I agree that a fee to sell on there makes sense. For the most part, its guitars or pedals or amps, so a £5 contribution per thread would deter some who are looking for a quick flip.

You will always have freeloaders. That's just society as a whole. Making sure that they don't impact on you is the trick.

£5 per thread would be a bit steep for someone offloading a Joyo pedal.  Maybe a £10 annual fee would work.  The fee depends whether you are using it as a way of raising money or just deterring freeloaders.

If you are charging a larger fee like Basschat do, then people would expect more features - like being able to upload images directly, which you can do on Basschat as far as I know.

Even a one off fee to get access to sell would deter a lot of the freeloaders, and then you wouldn't need to worry about a system for renewals.  If the mods got a couple of requests a day for classified access with details of the Paypal payment then it wouldn't be an outrageous workload.

BluesyDave

Really sorry to read this.  Massive thanks to Tony and Lee for all their efforts over the years for what is a largely thankless task.  Doesn't matter where you go in life, there are 'givers and takers'.  Not sure if there's much than can be done about that, at least on a forum you can permaban the worst offenders.  

As for some kind of fee for using the classifieds...I see nothing wrong with that.  BC charge a yearly fee for placing adds and I've not noticed a drop off in gear for sale.  It might not fit with the original ethos of the forum but it would provide a steady income.

Best of luck to Tony and Lee with whatever you do with all this 'spare time' you now have (LOL).  Hope to still see you about on the forum.

horse

bacchanalian said:

Although I have benefited greatly from the forum over the last 18 months or so, including one purchase that I am still delighted with


I'm hoping you are referring to the SG?

horse

Seems to me we might now need a 'meta' thread to accompany each new discussion, so that the quality of discussion in each thread can be analysed separately? Then maybe a meta meta discussion for each of those etc?

Just to also add my thanks to Tony and Lee for all they've done here, on a serious note.

Hoping we're not going to descend into too much hand wringing and tut tutting now though - that will get very tiresome very quickly.