The Kemper thread

Musicwolf

jaytmon said:

Musicwolf said:

jaytmon said:

The Kemper must have some MIDI functionality as I’m sure I’ve seen a Michael Britt YouTube video explaining how he switches in effects loops using a MIDI controller and the morph function…be damned if I can find that vid again though. Also appreciate this isn’t the same as being able to see the Kemper as a MIDI device in a DAW. Wonder if it could be a future update…

You can certainly switch / control via MIDI, but only using a 5 pin DIN MIDI connection.  MIDI over USB, as is available on say a Helix, is something that Kemper users have been requesting since the launch.  The fact that it hasn't happened despite all of the other significant free updates would suggest that it isn't something that Kemper are able to do for whatever reason.

That said, a simple USB to MIDI cable and a couple of MIDI leads isn't going to break the bank.

Ah, I see, makes sense. Be interesting to try with a MIDI > USB converter, see if it produced satisfactory results. 

I may get around to trying it this week.

Live we run backing tracks using a software package called Cantabile.  This allows us to have multiple audio and MIDI tracks running in sync (think of it a bit like a DAW that's optimised for live use).  I have one MIDI track to trigger our lighting rig (via QLC+ software) and another to switch patches and snapshots on my Helix.  I can set my Helix up at the side of the stage and just play, no tap dancing.

In general, I do prefer the sound of my Kemper to my Helix, but the Helix is so much more flexible (dual amp paths, MIDI over USB etc).  Whilst we've got a gap in our gigging schedule I may have a go at trying out the Kemper to see if it can do the job.  Some of the snapshot switching I do is very fast, switching back and forth a couple of times within a single bar, so I need to test the response speed of the Kemper.

Lestratcaster

Got myself a female XLR to TRS jack to use into the interface as a line in signal. I do need a fair bit of pre-amp gain though (up to halfway). Is this bad for a line signal or is it alright? I think I need 2 cables as well. With an xlr in I hardly need any additional preamp gain. But that's cos its using the mic preamp.

goldtop

Ideally, send a hot signal out of the Kemper to get best S/N ratio (so you have lower self-noise from the interface's preamp).

What levels are you at on the Kemper's Master Volume page? If that's dialled down, then you will have to recover it witht eh Gain setting at your interface.

Lestratcaster

Not sure about master volume but the main output volume is -12db and I’ve pushed the -12db button in the settings as it’s hotter going into my mixer. 

I could try depressing the -12db function on the Kemper I can turn down the preamp gain? 

I presume it’s better to use as close to zero preamp gain as possible to avoid over distorting or colouring the sound.

Musicwolf

Musicwolf said:

jaytmon said:

Musicwolf said:

jaytmon said:

The Kemper must have some MIDI functionality as I’m sure I’ve seen a Michael Britt YouTube video explaining how he switches in effects loops using a MIDI controller and the morph function…be damned if I can find that vid again though. Also appreciate this isn’t the same as being able to see the Kemper as a MIDI device in a DAW. Wonder if it could be a future update…

You can certainly switch / control via MIDI, but only using a 5 pin DIN MIDI connection.  MIDI over USB, as is available on say a Helix, is something that Kemper users have been requesting since the launch.  The fact that it hasn't happened despite all of the other significant free updates would suggest that it isn't something that Kemper are able to do for whatever reason.

That said, a simple USB to MIDI cable and a couple of MIDI leads isn't going to break the bank.

Ah, I see, makes sense. Be interesting to try with a MIDI > USB converter, see if it produced satisfactory results. 

I may get around to trying it this week.

Live we run backing tracks using a software package called Cantabile.  This allows us to have multiple audio and MIDI tracks running in sync (think of it a bit like a DAW that's optimised for live use).  I have one MIDI track to trigger our lighting rig (via QLC+ software) and another to switch patches and snapshots on my Helix.  I can set my Helix up at the side of the stage and just play, no tap dancing.

In general, I do prefer the sound of my Kemper to my Helix, but the Helix is so much more flexible (dual amp paths, MIDI over USB etc).  Whilst we've got a gap in our gigging schedule I may have a go at trying out the Kemper to see if it can do the job.  Some of the snapshot switching I do is very fast, switching back and forth a couple of times within a single bar, so I need to test the response speed of the Kemper.

I managed to set this up today.  I ran a Midisport 2x2 USB>MIDI in order to send MIDI commands from my DAW to the Kemper.  In Performance Mode you can use MIDI CC commands 50 through to 54 to switch between slots (CC50 = slot 1, CC51 = slot 2 etc).  I set up slot 1 as a crunchy amp and slot 2 as no amp / zero vol (effectively mute).  I did something similar with the Helix with two Snapshots (crunch and mute).   I then triggered and recorded the Kemper and Helix in turn with the MIDI CC commands on the first beat of a bar.  By hitting a power chord before the change I could see from the waveforms where the audio switched on and off.

The Helix managed an impressive 18~21 ms whereas the Kemper was a laggy 152~160 ms.  This didn't surprise me as I've always found switch slots on the Kemper to be slow (so I doubt that the issue was either with MIDI or the Midisport).  This isn't a fair comparison of the two units as the 'Slots' (Kemper) and 'Snapshots' (Helix) are different beasts.  Changing snapshots on the Helix does not entail loading a different amplifier but, because the Kemper only has a single amp path, I would need to work this way with the Kemper live.

I'll be sticking with the Helix for live and the Kemper for the studio.

jaytmon

I managed to set this up today.  I ran a Midisport 2x2 USB>MIDI in order to send MIDI commands from my DAW to the Kemper.  In Performance Mode you can use MIDI CC commands 50 through to 54 to switch between slots (CC50 = slot 1, CC51 = slot 2 etc).  I set up slot 1 as a crunchy amp and slot 2 as no amp / zero vol (effectively mute).  I did something similar with the Helix with two Snapshots (crunch and mute).   I then triggered and recorded the Kemper and Helix in turn with the MIDI CC commands on the first beat of a bar.  By hitting a power chord before the change I could see from the waveforms where the audio switched on and off.

The Helix managed an impressive 18~21 ms whereas the Kemper was a laggy 152~160 ms.  This didn't surprise me as I've always found switch slots on the Kemper to be slow (so I doubt that the issue was either with MIDI or the Midisport).  This isn't a fair comparison of the two units as the 'Slots' (Kemper) and 'Snapshots' (Helix) are different beasts.  Changing snapshots on the Helix does not entail loading a different amplifier but, because the Kemper only has a single amp path, I would need to work this way with the Kemper live.

I'll be sticking with the Helix for live and the Kemper for the studio.

I understand what you’re doing (barely!) though it’s way beyond anything I’d be clever enough to use! I started with Helix but moved to Kemper for live use as I found the Helix signal chain possibilities etc amazing but overwhelming. The relative simplicity/limitations of Kemper keeps me sane, plus like you I prefer the sound. Helix is definitely more powerful, inevitably, being newer technology.

A bit irrelevant as you have a working solution with Helix anyway, but I do wonder if instead of triggering a different slot you could use MIDI to trigger the morph function of a particular slot that drops volume to zero, if that’s even possible, and how that would compare response time wise, as that’s more akin to snapshots on Helix.

Musicwolf

jaytmon said:

A bit irrelevant as you have a working solution with Helix anyway, but I do wonder if instead of triggering a different slot you could use MIDI to trigger the morph function of a particular slot that drops volume to zero, if that’s even possible, and how that would compare response time wise, as that’s more akin to snapshots on Helix.

I did think about that but, to date, I've not found a way to switch the amp stack on and off remotely (although it may be possible).  I think that I could actually live with the Kemper lag-between-slots for most of the time but where I do need quick switching is for a song where I'm going between acoustic simulator sound (which has no amp in the chain) to distorted guitar amp for just a couple of beats.

After 10 minutes of trying I gave up as I've already got the Helix set up.  It was just a case of us having no gigs for several weeks due to people's holidays and therefore too much time on my hands.

goldtop

Lestratcaster said:

Not sure about master volume but the main output volume is -12db and I’ve pushed the -12db button in the settings as it’s hotter going into my mixer. 

I could try depressing the -12db function on the Kemper I can turn down the preamp gain? 

I presume it’s better to use as close to zero preamp gain as possible to avoid over distorting or colouring the sound.

I'm too new to all of the Kemper's options to give a definitive answer, but if your main outputs are -12dB, then I'd run them at closer to 0dB. Then you won't have to have the audio interface's Gain setting so high. It's not distortion or colouration that are the most significant issue - it's the extra analogue noise that having a Gain setting unnecessarily high inevitably adds. 

I just did a quick run through of the Kemper's output section, and it's VERY comprehensive*. Looks like there are ways to alter  the headphone Volume output as well as the Monitor output. 

(*And all separate from the rig's Gain and Rig Volume levels.)

Lestratcaster

goldtop said:

Lestratcaster said:

Not sure about master volume but the main output volume is -12db and I’ve pushed the -12db button in the settings as it’s hotter going into my mixer. 

I could try depressing the -12db function on the Kemper I can turn down the preamp gain? 

I presume it’s better to use as close to zero preamp gain as possible to avoid over distorting or colouring the sound.

I'm too new to all of the Kemper's options to give a definitive answer, but if your main outputs are -12dB, then I'd run them at closer to 0dB. Then you won't have to have the audio interface's Gain setting so high. It's not distortion or colouration that are the most significant issue - it's the extra analogue noise that having a Gain setting unnecessarily high inevitably adds. 

I just did a quick run through of the Kemper's output section, and it's VERY comprehensive*. Looks like there are ways to alter  the headphone Volume output as well as the Monitor output. 

(*And all separate from the rig's Gain and Rig Volume levels.)

Yeah that'll work for the interface, but when I want to use the mixer I'll have to change it again or press the -12db button (which is probably still going to be too loud after). I switch between the two on the fly often. I think there's a pad button on the mixer though so maybe I could try that to bring down the hot signal.

goldtop

I don't know your mixer, but if the channel is set for unity gain, then there should be no need to reduce the Kemper's output. That's how my Mackie 802 works, and I think that's industry standard. So a pad on a 0dB signal may not be needed (it's there for high signal inputs that you can't turn down).

Ideally you try to keep to unity gain through the whole signal path (for mixer and audio interface), and then use the mixer's (or the interface's) Volume control to reduce the output to the monitors if the room volume is higher than you want.

Lestratcaster

goldtop said:

I don't know your mixer, but if the channel is set for unity gain, then there should be no need to reduce the Kemper's output. That's how my Mackie 802 works, and I think that's industry standard. So a pad on a 0dB signal may not be needed (it's there for high signal inputs that you can't turn down).

Ideally you try to keep to unity gain through the whole signal path (for mixer and audio interface), and then use the mixer's (or the interface's) Volume control to reduce the output to the monitors if the room volume is higher than you want.

It's the Yamaha MG10. I don't even need to turn it past halfway for the channel volume, and that's with the -12db button enabled on the Kemper! 

I think both devices unity gain's are different. Halfway up on the interface is meant to be unity gain apparently. Earlier on I switched the -12db off on the Kemper and I could bring the gain down to about 20%. 

Might just be a case of having to switch that button on/off til I figure out the happy medium output volume for both.

goldtop

Aha. Just seen the MG12 photo here - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Yamaha-CMG10UKYEM-MG10-Mixing-Console/dp/B00I1DMJ84 - and the stereo inputs on Ch5-10 are labelled on the chassis as -10dBu, which is the 'consumer' level reference. So these channels are designed with a lot more gain and no pad button. Your Yamaha's outputs are +4dBu (pro level) though

For a great explanation on this, read the first part here: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-should-choose-4-or-10-db-my-console-inserts

Interesting and relevant quote: "The common studio and semi‑pro operating levels are +4dBu and ‑10dBV... There’s roughly 12dB of level difference between the two."

There's no Gain control on your stereo channels, and so all you have there is the Channel Level controls, and they don't indicate where unity would be. (On my Mackie, unity gain is at 12 o'clock on the level.)

You could use Channels 3+4 as they have both a pad and a Gain control that shows unity (at about 10 o'clock). But it's always a faff to use two mono channels as an L+R pair.

Lestratcaster

The first 4 mic/line inputs do have a pad button but it reduces the level too much currently. Kemper tech support said to run 2 TS cables into the line inputs of the mixer so I might give that a try with the -12db button off.

Like I said before around 12noon seems to be the happy spot for the channel level on the mixer. But that's with the -12db button on.

Lestratcaster

I should know the answer to this but if I'm using the Profiler live, and want both the direct out to PA and a cab on stage to monitor myself, the cab sim needs to be turned on/off for either right? How do I set this up so the audience hear the direct signal and I can hear myself through the cab? Is it a different output? Monitor?

Also I'm starting to think the cutting out/weak signal thing was the cable after all, 3 weeks on and its been working fine with a different one but I will continue to see if it does it again. Hopefully not.

Musicwolf

P32 of the manual

Running a Guitar Speaker Cabinet by a Power Amplifier, “Monitor Cab Off”

For the perfect on-stage setup, the Profiler allows to simultaneously run a guitar speaker-cabinet through a power
amp, and - at the same time - send a complete studio sound (amplifier plus cabinet and microphone) from the MAIN OUTPUTS to the front-of-house mixing desk. Since your guitar cabinet doesn’t need to be picked up via microphone any more, it becomes your personal monitor on stage. The MONITOR OUTPUT features an independent volume control, as well as a dedicated Monitor Output Equalizer in the Output Settings. These allow you to tailor the sound to your speaker cabinet, while the sound on the other outputs remain unaffected.

For this setup, you need to bypass the Cabinet Profile for the MONITOR OUTPUT, so as to avoid running a cabinet
simulation through a physical cabinet. The soft button "Monitor Cab Off" in the Output Settings will bypass the Cabinet Profile for the MONITOR OUTPUT as well as the built-in power amp of PowerHead and PowerRack, while the Cabinet Profile stays active for the other outputs including the MAIN OUTPUTS. This is a global setting, and thus applied to all Rigs. However, the signal from the MONITOR OUTPUT is processed according to the kind of Profile included in the Rig: for regular Studio Profiles, the CabDriver algorithm is activated, whereas Merged Profiles feed the direct amp sound to the MONITOR OUTPUT and built-in power amp.

Lestratcaster

So its a simple case of turning monitor cab off then in the output menu? Or using the monitor output port?

Musicwolf

Lestratcaster said:

So its a simple case of turning monitor cab off then in the output menu? Or using the monitor output port?

Both.  Main out goes to FOH, monitor output to on stage amp / guitar cab.  Press output (illuminated switch in upper right quadrant of front panel), press page right (located to the right of the screen), then click soft button ‘monitor cab off’.  Save and job done.

this is a global setting so affects all patches.

Lestratcaster

Musicwolf said:

Lestratcaster said:

So its a simple case of turning monitor cab off then in the output menu? Or using the monitor output port?

Both.  Main out goes to FOH, monitor output to on stage amp / guitar cab.  Press output (illuminated switch in upper right quadrant of front panel), press page right (located to the right of the screen), then click soft button ‘monitor cab off’.  Save and job done.

this is a global setting so affects all patches.

Ah. So literally the speaker cable that would come out the speaker out port now comes from monitor out instead? Do I turn cab sim on or off?

I might give this a little trial run next week when playing at home. May be playing at a wedding so want to test it works!

Vintage65

Has anybody tried reamping via the new USB feature?

Lestratcaster

Sorry to bring this up again but a few months ago I asked about using both the main outputs to FOH and a speaker cabinet to self-monitor. I thought I had to plug it from monitor output into the cab and turn "monitor cab off" to stop the profiled cab coming through the speaker cab. It worked for my 1x12 cab for home but I've had two band rehearsals with a 4x12 in the room, and did this the same way but could barely hear anything coming out the cab over drums. Was cranking all volumes up to no use.

I think I've been connecting it wrong. Monitor output is only a line level signal and won't be loud enough drive a passive cab right? It's a powered Kemper so there's a power amp in there so what I really should be doing is using the red speaker output into the cab and send the main outs to the PA? But if I do this won't I still be getting the profiled cabinet into the physical cab? Or are they two different outputs?

Sorry for being a bit stupid I've only really used the Kemper at home into studio monitors and not really had the need to use a cab.