Guitar Guitar R9 sale - Anyone getting excited about these

TheGASMan

i asked Coda about a 2016 59 they had up at £4599 and they said £4499 was best - so I guess they are in a bit of a mess as they bought the older stuff in at higher prices.

Now GG have got those 60+ R9s I can't see anyone shifting stock above £3499 unless it is a perfect match for someones requirements, and even then I can't see anyone paying that much of a premium - God knows what is gonna happen with the 2018 and 2019 stock

Fortheloveofguitar

I’m in the same boat that £3499 is too much over the odds. £2499 was a perfect price for the R8 models so £2999 for an R9 or R0 would be a more realistic figure 

TheGASMan

hyperben said:

Coda have a really nice R9 at a good weight. Surely won’t be long before someone snags this one

https://www.coda-music.com/gibson-custom-shop-2017-1959-les-paul-standard-flametop-iced-tea-97822.html

The ones at Kenny’s look nice too.

Hands off that's mine if I can stop faffing LOL

TheGASMan

hyperben said:

Coda have a really nice R9 at a good weight. Surely won’t be long before someone snags this one

https://www.coda-music.com/gibson-custom-shop-2017-1959-les-paul-standard-flametop-iced-tea-97822.html

The ones at Kenny’s look nice too.

Hands off that's mine if I can stop faffing LOL

Fifty9

It’s a near-perfect top for me but for 3.5k I’d need a v dark board too. That’s turned out to be a v important requirement for me. The r8 I have is actually dark but also very red - the reddest I’ve seen in a RW board but I like it.

capo4th

Are you listening guitar retailers? £2999 is the magic number !  

guitars4you

capo4th said:

Are you listening guitar retailers? £2999 is the magic number !  

it has been an interesting few weeks with such crazy prices following Gibson's warehouse clearance - But many dealers will ride out the storm if they have existing stock at the 'non offer' price - You can't make  a living selling £10 notes for £9 - It won't be long when all such deals are done and dusted, everything settled down at pre promo prices will be the norm again

Twinfan

Yep, dealers will be making small enough margins as it is at £3499.  They'll all sell eventually at that price IMHO.

Hattigol

guitars4you said:

capo4th said:

Are you listening guitar retailers? £2999 is the magic number !  

it has been an interesting few weeks with such crazy prices following Gibson's warehouse clearance - But many dealers will ride out the storm if they have existing stock at the 'non offer' price - You can't make  a living selling £10 notes for £9 - It won't be long when all such deals are done and dusted, everything settled down at pre promo prices will be the norm again

It depends how much you pay for your £10 notes!

StuartMac290

There seems to be a misconception developing about the dealers' margins on these guitars. They'll be making pretty much bugger-all selling R9s at £3499 as it is (or R8s at £2499 for that matter). Everyone might well really fancy an R9 for under three grand but we can't expect dealers just to sell us premium guitars at a loss as a result!

Musicman20

StuartMac290 said:

There seems to be a misconception developing about the dealers' margins on these guitars. They'll be making pretty much bugger-all selling R9s at £3499 as it is (or R8s at £2499 for that matter). Everyone might well really fancy an R9 for under three grand but we can't expect dealers just to sell us premium guitars at a loss as a result!

Yes, but do we know what the dealers are getting them for? The cynical side of me would presume that GG, for instance, have a large batch, and they were sold to them at a price when even £3499 is a good earner for them. 

armitaan

of these things aren’t flying off the shelves at £3500 I’m struggling to see how the market is going to happily adjust to paying £4500 again. Not sure how many r9s sold in uk each year but GC has flooded the market which would have thought will have had a significant longer term impact. Everyone knows Gibson does fire sales, up until now people didn’t think they did for custom shop, so going forward would have thought most people will just wait for another one, even if doesn’t happen: can’t see anyone paying 4.5k for something when there’s a risk next week someone will be offloading them for a grand less.

Whitecat

Musicman20 said:

StuartMac290 said:

There seems to be a misconception developing about the dealers' margins on these guitars. They'll be making pretty much bugger-all selling R9s at £3499 as it is (or R8s at £2499 for that matter). Everyone might well really fancy an R9 for under three grand but we can't expect dealers just to sell us premium guitars at a loss as a result!

Yes, but do we know what the dealers are getting them for? The cynical side of me would presume that GG, for instance, have a large batch, and they were sold to them at a price when even £3499 is a good earner for them. 

John remarked that he reckoned the VAT man was making more than he did off the R8s, so you can guesstimate it from there. 

Hattigol

Whitecat said:

Musicman20 said:

StuartMac290 said:

There seems to be a misconception developing about the dealers' margins on these guitars. They'll be making pretty much bugger-all selling R9s at £3499 as it is (or R8s at £2499 for that matter). Everyone might well really fancy an R9 for under three grand but we can't expect dealers just to sell us premium guitars at a loss as a result!

Yes, but do we know what the dealers are getting them for? The cynical side of me would presume that GG, for instance, have a large batch, and they were sold to them at a price when even £3499 is a good earner for them. 

John remarked that he reckoned the VAT man was making more than he did off the R8s, so you can guesstimate it from there. 

Ok, so on the R8s, the VAT man would be making £416.50. Let's assume the retailers made £350.

Scaling it up pro rata, that would make £490 profit on the R9s. If that's right, it's hard to see more than a couple of hundred pounds coming off the £3499, if anything?

Twinfan

R8 @ £2499 = £2082.50 and VAT of £416.50.  If the dealer makes the same amount, that's a buy-in of £1666.  To break even, the rock bottom price is £1666 + VAT = £1999.20.

R9 @ £3499 = £2915.83 and VAT of £583.17.  If the dealer makes the same amount, that's a buy-in of £2332.66.  To break even, the rock bottom price is £2332.66 + VAT = £2799.19.

So in theory they could sell them at £2999 but the mark-up is only £200.  A business would need to make more than that if it can unless they're selling hundreds of them.

crunchman

Gibson have obviously given them this batch of guitars at much lower prices than normal.  @Twinfan the guy from Peach said the VAT man was making more off of them than Peach were, so your calculations are probably a bit optimistic for the dealer's cut.

Twinfan said:

R8 @ £2499 = £2082.50 and VAT of £416.50.  If the dealer makes the same amount, that's a buy-in of £1666.  To break even, the rock bottom price is £1666 + VAT = £1999.20.

You also have to allow for finance deals and shipping.  If you buy on a finance deal, the finance company takes a cut - let's say that is 2% - so £50 on a £2500 R8.  It's probably going to cost another £20 or so to ship it.  The dealer is only going to see £2430 (or thereabouts) out of the £2499 price.

I suspect that Gibson will go to a lower volume, higher margin model in the future on these guitars.  They did manage to sell some True Historics at £5k plus, before they did away with that designation.  There are a number of people who will pay £3.5k for an R8 and £4.5k for an R9.

hyperben

More than one dealer has offered me R9s at £3300 if bought outright. The finance obviously costs them money despite being marketed as 0%, so there are still discounts to be had if prepared to pay that way. This was enough to persuade me to buy an R9.

Twinfan

Yep, I know I was being optimistic.  Just putting some completely transparent figures together so I had to make some assumptions 

Interesting what Ben says about £3300 being possible for an R9.  I didn't even bother asking for a lower price on mine as I wanted that specific guitar before anyone else snagged it!  If you have more options then it may be worth a bit of a haggle, but getting one for £2999 sounds like a big ask.

StuartMac290

Then there's the knock-on effect where people who might otherwise be in the market for a guitar at £2-£3k without the decimated profit margin for the dealer are currently all spending their cash on R8s and R9s in the current Gibson feeding frenzy, which probably net as much dealer profit as basic Fenders, if that.

PLUS as already pointed out there's the further knock-on effect of the long-term damage to the perceived value of Gibson Historic guitars. How long will it be before people are willing to buy them again at normal prices with a decent (-ish) margin built in for the dealer? Especially if everyone waits for another blow-out?

There's no doubt this whole thing has benefitted one group of people, and that's us. It looks like a bit of a nightmare for the dealers. I don't mean to sound harsh but in all honesty if you can't afford a brand new R9 at £3499 from a dealer then you can't afford an R9. They need to make SOMETHING on a sale!

guitars4you

hyperben said:

More than one dealer has offered me R9s at £3300 if bought outright. The finance obviously costs them money despite being marketed as 0%, so there are still discounts to be had if prepared to pay that way. This was enough to persuade me to buy an R9.

I know how the 0% finance works for the dealer - But isn't it illegal to offer a lower price if you buy it without the 0% agreement - That is effectively saying it isn't 0% - Sure someone has better knowledge on this than me but dealer should be careful