Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

darthed1981

thegummy said:

darthed1981 said:

SteveRobinson said:

As always, brands price at what people are willing to pay, they don't price relative to cost of manufacture.

Of course, and everyone jumping to defend US made guitar prices here in the way they are, explains why they get away with it!

Who's defending it?

I see some posts trying to explain it, that's all.

Typically, someone will say the prices are justified because of all the minor feature changes, or in some extreme cases, that anyone complaining about the prices is just jealous about the cost because they can't afford it, to paraphrase Private Eye "TFB Passim Ad Nauseum"...

Wasn't talking about specific posters in this specific thread, though I'd say go back far enough and you will probably find a few robust defenses of Gibson USA's pricing.

thegummy

darthed1981 said:

thegummy said:

darthed1981 said:

SteveRobinson said:

As always, brands price at what people are willing to pay, they don't price relative to cost of manufacture.

Of course, and everyone jumping to defend US made guitar prices here in the way they are, explains why they get away with it!

Who's defending it?

I see some posts trying to explain it, that's all.

Typically, someone will say the prices are justified because of all the minor feature changes, or in some extreme cases, that anyone complaining about the prices is just jealous about the cost because they can't afford it, to paraphrase Private Eye "TFB Passim Ad Nauseum"...

Wasn't talking about specific posters in this specific thread, though I'd say go back far enough and you will probably find a few robust defenses of Gibson USA's pricing.

There's looking in to the reasons for prices being what they are and there's people saying the extra price is worth it for them but I don't really get the idea of defending the prices since a private company can charge anything they want, they don't need to be defended.

I come in to threads like these from the side of "let's discuss and collectively make an educated guess as to what things are increasing the price that doesn't lead to a better guitar".

Generally when we're looking to buy something we have no expertise in, we look at a range available and assume that the more expensive choices are in some way better. By breaking down the costs, it gives a more useful way to judge comparitively based on price.

Discussing the higher wages that are paid to workers in America isn't a "lay off Fender, their hands are tied" kind of thing, it's more that if you take off the extra wages (and the premium for "made in America" that gets added on because people will pay for it) it would be more reliable to then compare the prices.

Purely as an example; if a £500 Fender is equal to a £500 Schecter guitar (who stick with the same factory), a £1000 Fender might only be equal to, say, a £800 Schecter.

johnl

All the vehemence does seem to be coming from the other side of the argument. There's a lot of people that are quite angry at the idea that someone might buy a Gibson, not so many people who are quite as annoyed that someone might choose to buy a HB.....

tony99

johnl said:

There's a lot of people that are quite angry at the idea that someone might buy a Gibson, 

usually the wives...

OilCityPickups

tony99 said:

johnl said:

There's a lot of people that are quite angry at the idea that someone might buy a Gibson, 

usually the wives...

I think I have the ideal guitarist's wife ... a live music and events tech who ... If I havn't got a Gibson or whatever brand I feel I need in the arsenal says 'why not?'

tony99

OilCityPickups said:

tony99 said:

johnl said:

There's a lot of people that are quite angry at the idea that someone might buy a Gibson, 

usually the wives...

I think I have the ideal guitarist's wife ... a live music and events tech who ... If I havn't got a Gibson or whatever brand I feel I need in the arsenal says 'why not?'

cherish her ; )

darthed1981

thegummy said:

darthed1981 said:

thegummy said:

darthed1981 said:

SteveRobinson said:

As always, brands price at what people are willing to pay, they don't price relative to cost of manufacture.

Of course, and everyone jumping to defend US made guitar prices here in the way they are, explains why they get away with it!

Who's defending it?

I see some posts trying to explain it, that's all.

Typically, someone will say the prices are justified because of all the minor feature changes, or in some extreme cases, that anyone complaining about the prices is just jealous about the cost because they can't afford it, to paraphrase Private Eye "TFB Passim Ad Nauseum"...

Wasn't talking about specific posters in this specific thread, though I'd say go back far enough and you will probably find a few robust defenses of Gibson USA's pricing.

There's looking in to the reasons for prices being what they are and there's people saying the extra price is worth it for them but I don't really get the idea of defending the prices since a private company can charge anything they want, they don't need to be defended.

I agree, hence my original comment.

Ultimately, the market decides.  The irony that many dealers dropped the price of an R8 to 2.5k and a lot more people were interested is probably not lost on anyone.

I'd personally be very surprised if there wasn't still a fairly reasonable margin for Gibson in that 2.5k though, although we will never know.

darthed1981

johnl said:

All the vehemence does seem to be coming from the other side of the argument. There's a lot of people that are quite angry at the idea that someone might buy a Gibson, not so many people who are quite as annoyed that someone might choose to buy a HB.....

Really?  I've thought overall given how contentious the issue is the whole debate has been very civilised and anger free?

Three-ColourSunburst

OilCityPickups said:

TINMAN82 said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

Which SG models is this? Hi thought the newer range was back to hand wired?

This was two or three years ago, so probably only concerns second hand instruments now,

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-standard-2019

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-classic-2019

https://troglysguitarshow.com/2018/11/10/2019-gibson-the-paul-40th-anniversary-review/

roberty

Three-ColourSunburst said:

OilCityPickups said:

TINMAN82 said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

Which SG models is this? Hi thought the newer range was back to hand wired?

This was two or three years ago, so probably only concerns second hand instruments now,

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-standard-2019

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-classic-2019

https://troglysguitarshow.com/2018/11/10/2019-gibson-the-paul-40th-anniversary-review/

Pretty sure the modern Standard has push/pull pots and DIP switches for various wiring options?  Fair enough as this expands the capabilities of the guitar and would be impractical to accomplish without PCB

The 50's and 60's reissue models are p2p according to this https://guitar.com/news/gibson-new-2019-original-collection/

OilCityPickups

Three-ColourSunburst said:

OilCityPickups said:

TINMAN82 said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

Which SG models is this? Hi thought the newer range was back to hand wired?

This was two or three years ago, so probably only concerns second hand instruments now,

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-standard-2019

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-classic-2019

https://troglysguitarshow.com/2018/11/10/2019-gibson-the-paul-40th-anniversary-review/

Ah well ... if I was buying a new LP from those ranges I'd bargain on upgrading to a proper harness.

My own Les Paul Studio was circuit board ... bought second hand from the classifieds here minus pickups for ... if I remember rightly about £360 quid.

I put in new pots (one switched for phase), selector switch, and a new set of my pickups (peter green style)

And if I'd paid for my own stuff I guess you were looking at around £300 quid on upgrades.

So total of £660 quid for a LP with a sound that stacks up well to a R8 etc.

I doubt it sounds much better than a similarly upgraded HB ... but the neck and fingerboard are lovely, very comfortable, and suit me down to the ground.

roberty

OilCityPickups said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

OilCityPickups said:

TINMAN82 said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

Are Gibson's circuit boards are inferior in any way?

They are largely crap ... the SG versions have jack sockets press fitted into the board ... so when the guitar comes with a floppy socket as mine did from new ... you have no choice but to scrap the board. If you want to change pickups to anything other than Gibson ... tough luck, because the connectors are not easily soldered to aftermarket pickups. To cap it all the quality of the pots used on circuit boards seems lower than the normal Gibson CTS.

Which SG models is this? Hi thought the newer range was back to hand wired?

This was two or three years ago, so probably only concerns second hand instruments now,

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-standard-2019

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/gibson-les-paul-classic-2019

https://troglysguitarshow.com/2018/11/10/2019-gibson-the-paul-40th-anniversary-review/

Ah well ... if I was buying a new LP from those ranges I'd bargain on upgrading to a proper harness.

My own Les Paul Studio was circuit board ... bought second hand from the classifieds here minus pickups for ... if I remember rightly about £360 quid.

I put in new pots (one switched for phase), selector switch, and a new set of my pickups (peter green style)

And if I'd paid for my own stuff I guess you were looking at around £300 quid on upgrades.

So total of £660 quid for a LP with a sound that stacks up well to a R8 etc.

I doubt it sounds much better than a similarly upgraded HB ... but the neck and fingerboard are lovely, very comfortable, and suit me down to the ground.

That's the smart money.  The rest of what you get is ornamental :-) and there's nothing wrong with that

From what I've seen and read the body blanks are graded accordingly for different models, but that doesn't guarantee a particular end result and there's always variation

ICBM

johnl said:

All the vehemence does seem to be coming from the other side of the argument. There's a lot of people that are quite angry at the idea that someone might buy a Gibson, not so many people who are quite as annoyed that someone might choose to buy a HB.....

I'm certainly not angry about it either way round. There are two things which niggle me a bit when I see people say them, which are:

"My cheap copy is better than a Gibson for a fraction of the price."

No it isn't - it might be nearly as good for a fraction of the price, but that's not the same thing.

"Anything other than a real Gibson is rubbish, don't waste your money."

No it isn't - while my personal opinion is that a Gibson does have some sort of indefinable 'something' to the feel and sound, that doesn't mean you can't get a very good guitar that isn't a Gibson.

And I have to say that if I want a Les Paul and I can afford a Gibson, I'm going to buy one, at whatever price point that happens to be. If I want a two-humbucker/glued-neck/etc guitar that doesn't have to be exactly a Les Paul then I might not...

rossi

I would buy a  Gibson Les Paul happily  especially a weight relieved one .The HB will weigh a ton .i do have a Midtown which is rather nice but a bit bulky for a short old man and heavy in its  supplied case .Why anyone would buy a HB if they could afford a Gibson is beyond me .For fun and to muck around with maybe .i might look for swapping out the Midtown for a modern Les Paul.

Three-ColourSunburst

roberty said:

The 50's and 60's reissue models are p2p according to this https://guitar.com/news/gibson-new-2019-original-collection/

No weight relief on those so likely to 'weigh a ton', just like a vintage  1952 - 1983 Les Paul, custom shop Historic Reissues, and the Traditionals - or a Harley Benton. 

Then again, perhaps only solid body vintage Les Pauls (and Harley Bentons) can deliver that authentic 'solid mahogany' tone.

johnl

Weren't most of the reissues in the Peach thread between 8-9lbs? For reference the non-weight relieved (I think?) Classics that were also on sale around the same time started at around 10lbs. 

roberty

johnl said:

Weren't most of the reissues in the Peach thread between 8-9lbs? For reference the non-weight relieved (I think?) Classics that were also on sale around the same time started at around 10lbs. 

My R8 is 8lbs 14oz with the medallion removed.  My '16 Traditional was 10lbs with swiss cheese weight relief

terada

johnl said:

Weren't most of the reissues in the Peach thread between 8-9lbs? For reference the non-weight relieved (I think?) Classics that were also on sale around the same time started at around 10lbs. 

 My R9 is about 7lb 15ish. All solid. Yep the r8s last year were nearly all between 8 and 9.

As for the actual 58s and 59s. They were on average in the same 8-9 range according to BOTB. To lump them in with the pancake Norlins as has been  is misleading. 

crunchman

terada said:

johnl said:

Weren't most of the reissues in the Peach thread between 8-9lbs? For reference the non-weight relieved (I think?) Classics that were also on sale around the same time started at around 10lbs. 

 My R9 is about 7lb 15ish. All solid. Yep the r8s last year were nearly all between 8 and 9.

As for the actual 58s and 59s. They were on average in the same 8-9 range according to BOTB. To lump them in with the pancake Norlins as has been  is misleading. 

They save the lightest mahogany for the Custom Shop reissues.  I used mine on a strap for 2 and quarter hours on Friday night and it was fine.

Gratuitous picture:

Bet you can't find a Harley Benton that looks like that.

terada

crunchman said:

terada said:

johnl said:

Weren't most of the reissues in the Peach thread between 8-9lbs? For reference the non-weight relieved (I think?) Classics that were also on sale around the same time started at around 10lbs. 

 My R9 is about 7lb 15ish. All solid. Yep the r8s last year were nearly all between 8 and 9.

As for the actual 58s and 59s. They were on average in the same 8-9 range according to BOTB. To lump them in with the pancake Norlins as has been  is misleading. 

Bet you can't find a Harley Benton that looks like that.

or one as light, that doesn't require upgrades to sound exquisite and can be sold for more than you bought it for.  

I've seen this pic many times, and it gets better every time. Stunning stuff @crunchman ;