Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

Sassafras · July 2019

I don't particularly care about brands. What I do care about is whether the guitar sounds good, intonates correctly, stays in tune, can be worn comfortably on a strap for over 2 hours and doesn't keep cutting out or buzzing. Everything else is just fluff.
The guitar I gigged the most over the last few years was a Vintage AV2 which cost me just over a £100.

Henrytwang · July 2019

Although I’d love to say that Harley Benton guitars are as good as anything out there I’ve played a few and have yet to find one I really like. I’m sure that with an electronics upgrade and a good setup a HB Les Paul could sound and play great but they’re just not for me. On the other hand neither are the expensive Custom Shop instruments from the likes of Gibson or Fender my sort of thing. Although there are lots of people who moan about the build quality of today’s top American brands I’ve yet to own a recent standard production Gibson or Fender that doesn’t play and sound fine.

tony99 · July 2019

Henrytwang said:

Although I’d love to say that Harley Benton guitars are as good as anything out there I’ve played a few and have yet to find one I really like. I’m sure that with an electronics upgrade and a good setup a HB Les Paul could sound and play great but they’re just not for me. On the other hand neither are the expensive Custom Shop instruments from the likes of Gibson or Fender my sort of thing. Although there are lots of people who moan about the build quality of today’s top American brands I’ve yet to own a recent standard production Gibson or Fender that doesn’t play and sound fine.

so what? LP standard then? american strat? although not custom shop they'd both lean towards what I would call high end

terada · July 2019

I don’t get the Harley Benton love to be honest.

There are plenty of great quality cheaper instruments out there. But the house brand of a large multinational mail order company, made as cheap as possible across 20 factories staffed with people working in poor conditions strikes me as somthing I’d rather avoid.

Looking at the price differential and diminishing returns compared to Gibson’s (and others) is entirely reasonable, it is astonishing what you can get for so little. But it doesn’t change the unavoidable processes involved in getting a Thomann own brand from a tree in Asia to a guitar in the uk (after all taxes) at that price.

And thats before you look look at the impact of thomann themselves on local guitar shops.

Plenty of of other options out there, especially after you consider the couple of hundred extra for upgrades you’ll probably end up spending.

p90fool · July 2019

The whole point to me is that some guitars make me smile.

Recent ones for me have been a couple of well-worn Gibsons, an Eastwood Airline, a friend's 90s Danelectro and a Chinese Hamer doublecut with EMGs. They all put a big grin in my face for a variety of reasons.

Seriously, it can be anything at any time which clicks with me, price is almost irrelevant, even though it's more likely with a vintage Gibson than most.

guitars4you · July 2019

darthed1981 said:

It's interesting the point you make about "pro" instruments though, I've seen a LOT of bands who play pubs and clubs with Mex Fenders and Epiphones. Obviously "pro" kicks in a long time before you get to a £2200 LP Standard, let alone an R8 or R9.

I get why people want them, but a far east guitar, at least with mods, is probably enough for the majority of people. I'm not sure everyone going out buying expensive or vintage gear at extreme cost can play at even close to the level to get the most out of a long vs short tenon, or all the other weird heritage LP stuff.

I didn't mean 'pro' in the sense you have to be a professional musician. highly talented, or regular gigging muso to buy one - I was just trying to differentiate 2 different price points - I'm sure there are other words I could have used

I have never been fortunate to have the funds to buy a Porsche or similar, but if I did I know for a fact that the dealer is only interested in my ability to buy it - Not my ability to drive it to its limit etc

I've said today and many times before, that we are blessed today with the quality of well priced guitars from the far east - Better now than ever before - But I still have a passion for 'more elite' based instruments - And that is me stating that as Mark the guitar player - Not Mark the capitalist pig who makes a living selling such nice guitars - We can all buy what we like and as long as we are free to do so, then I'm happy for all concerned - I have a customer today looking at a 12K guitar who can barely play, but he has a passion for such guitars - I also have a very good customer, phenomenal player, who gigs regularly with an Epiphone thru' a Peavey Bandit and the tone he acquires 'out performs' the price tag of both products - I'm content and happy for both parties and certainly don't see the need or point to 'knock either

guitars4you · July 2019

p90fool said:

The whole point to me is that some guitars make me smile.

Recent ones for me have been a couple of well-worn Gibsons, an Eastwood Airline, a friend's 90s Danelectro and a Chinese Hamer doublecut with EMGs. They all put a big grin in my face for a variety of reasons.

Seriously, it can be anything at any time which clicks with me, price is almost irrelevant, even though it's more likely with a vintage Gibson than most.

agree, especially the first line - That is what I meant about the passion and emotion of buying any guitar

Yes many 'cool + odd ball' guitars have character and well worth playing them for what you can get out of them - I'm a fan of both Rory Gallagher and Mike Campbell and both had a 'cool odd ball collection that rivalled our own H7

thegummy · July 2019

guitars4you said:

darthed1981 said:

It's interesting the point you make about "pro" instruments though, I've seen a LOT of bands who play pubs and clubs with Mex Fenders and Epiphones. Obviously "pro" kicks in a long time before you get to a £2200 LP Standard, let alone an R8 or R9.

I get why people want them, but a far east guitar, at least with mods, is probably enough for the majority of people. I'm not sure everyone going out buying expensive or vintage gear at extreme cost can play at even close to the level to get the most out of a long vs short tenon, or all the other weird heritage LP stuff.

I didn't mean 'pro' in the sense you have to be a professional musician. highly talented, or regular gigging muso to buy one - I was just trying to differentiate 2 different price points - I'm sure there are other words I could have used

I have never been fortunate to have the funds to buy a Porsche or similar, but if I did I know for a fact that the dealer is only interested in my ability to buy it - Not my ability to drive it to its limit etc

I've said today and many times before, that we are blessed today with the quality of well priced guitars from the far east - Better now than ever before - But I still have a passion for 'more elite' based instruments - And that is me stating that as Mark the guitar player - Not Mark the capitalist pig who makes a living selling such nice guitars - We can all buy what we like and as long as we are free to do so, then I'm happy for all concerned - I have a customer today looking at a 12K guitar who can barely play, but he has a passion for such guitars - I also have a very good customer, phenomenal player, who gigs regularly with an Epiphone thru' a Peavey Bandit and the tone he acquires 'out performs' the price tag of both products - I'm content and happy for both parties and certainly don't see the need or point to 'knock either

Bet I wouldn't be the only one whose jealousy of that guy being able to afford to pay 12 grand for a guitar would make me think negatively "pfft look how shit he is as well" whereas I wouldn't necessarily think negatively about a bad player who had a Harley Benton or even a normal priced guitar.

rossi · July 2019

If I was buying lower end I would go Vintage as they are a known quality for the price and Wilkingson stuff usually works fine

Three-ColourSunburst · July 2019

terada said:

I don’t get the Harley Benton love to be honest.

There are plenty of great quality cheaper instruments out there. But the house brand of a large multinational mail order company, made as cheap as possible across 20 factories staffed with people working in poor conditions strikes me as somthing I’d rather avoid.

Has it never occurred to you that the main reason for the price difference between cheap instruments and the likes of Gibson just might be that Gibson is milking its customers? After all, despite Gibson's woes the guitar side of the business is apparently still coining it.

As to Harley Benton, how would you rate them against the likes of Vintage - bearing in mind that many HB models (such as the 'Paradise Flame LP models) have pretty much been exactly the same guitar as one can buy with a Vintage logo on, from the same factory, but for around twice the price?

Fact is Harley Benton's roll off the same production lines and many other lower-priced guitars and they are not made 'as cheap as possible'. Rather, they are made as good as can be achieved within the price point set by the company buying them - just like most other brands. (Gibson excepted obviously, who instead push out any old crap for top-Dollar telling the customer to ignore the quality and value and instead sniff the mojo and 'authenticity'.)

Thomann also take a deep interest in how the guitars are made. For example, they started specifying Roswell pickups rather then Wilkinson ones because they found that fake Wilkinsons were entering the supply chain and they had no control over this, whilst with Roswell they could ensure that the genuine article ended up in the guitars being made for them.

As to 'people working in poor conditions', have you never read what people employed by Gibson say about the working conditions there, or read one of Gibson's job advertisements? These typically make working on the shop floor there sound like forced labour, with phrases such as 'having the ability to stand for 8-10 hours a day' whilst working 'at an accelerated pace' in a 'fast-paced industrial manufacturing environment' and 'mandatory overtime' being pretty much standard. (Those who work there say that you will even be expected to work through your lunch break, with the company having no respect for the law regarding employment and working conditions etc. etc.)

Funkfingers · July 2019

Nurse!

Bridgehouse · July 2019

Funkfingers said:

Nurse!

Yes?

TeleMaster · July 2019

Personally I think the suggestion that they’re comparable is absolute nonsense.

guitars4you · July 2019

Three-ColourSunburst said:

terada said:

I don’t get the Harley Benton love to be honest.

There are plenty of great quality cheaper instruments out there. But the house brand of a large multinational mail order company, made as cheap as possible across 20 factories staffed with people working in poor conditions strikes me as somthing I’d rather avoid.

Has it never occurred to you that the main reason for the price difference between cheap instruments and the likes of Gibson just might be that Gibson is milking its customers? After all, despite Gibson's woes the guitar side of the business is apparently still coining it.

As to Harley Benton, how would you rate them against the likes of Vintage - bearing in mind that many HB models (such as the 'Paradise Flame LP models) have pretty much been exactly the same guitar as one can buy with a Vintage logo on, from the same factory, but for around twice the price?

Fact is Harley Benton's roll off the same production lines and many other lower-priced guitars and they are not made 'as cheap as possible'. Rather, they are made as good as can be achieved within the price point set by the company buying them - just like most other brands. (Gibson excepted obviously, who instead push out any old crap for top-Dollar telling the customer to ignore the quality and value and instead sniff the mojo and 'authenticity'.)

Thomann also take a deep interest in how the guitars are made. For example, they started specifying Roswell pickups rather then Wilkinson ones because they found that fake Wilkinsons were entering the supply chain and they had no control over this, whilst with Roswell they could ensure that the genuine article ended up in the guitars being made for them.

As to 'people working in poor conditions', have you never read what people employed by Gibson say about the working conditions there, or read one of Gibson's job advertisements? These typically make working on the shop floor there sound like forced labour, with phrases such as 'having the ability to stand for 8-10 hours a day' whilst working 'at an accelerated pace' in a 'fast-paced industrial manufacturing environment' and 'mandatory overtime' being pretty much standard. (Those who work there say that you will even be expected to work through your lunch break, with the company having no respect for the law regarding employment and working conditions etc. etc.)

So we buy a Harley Benton LP Style guitar for £250 ish from Thomann - Guess how much of that £250 goes into the UK economy - Either via vat, or corporation tax - Less than 1p - Sounds like a great move

There is one reason and one reason only that Thomann operate such a line and that is profit - Make it two reasons and add exclusivity, so no price matching - Factory to shop floor - No middle man - More profit - I'm not saying the product is good, bad indifferent, but the % of GP on such lines will be more than your best selling established brands - After selling 4/5/6 guitars and putting over £1K in the till, they will have made more profit than putting £1k in the till after selling a GIbson

I worked for an organisation 15 years ago that operated a similar guitar line, so factory to the shop floor - We looked at the option of working with a UK distributor, to buy say a Tanglewood or Vintage , but with exclusive colours or upgrade options - But the option of going direct to a factory and creating your own brand name, on popular shapes offered far superior profit margins

Henrytwang · July 2019

tony99 said:

Henrytwang said:

Although I’d love to say that Harley Benton guitars are as good as anything out there I’ve played a few and have yet to find one I really like. I’m sure that with an electronics upgrade and a good setup a HB Les Paul could sound and play great but they’re just not for me. On the other hand neither are the expensive Custom Shop instruments from the likes of Gibson or Fender my sort of thing. Although there are lots of people who moan about the build quality of today’s top American brands I’ve yet to own a recent standard production Gibson or Fender that doesn’t play and sound fine.

so what? LP standard then? american strat? although not custom shop they'd both lean towards what I would call high end

Depends on how serious you are, buy a good used one and it’ll last you a lifetime. I own ordinary production Gibson’s and Fenders which I bought secondhand in the 1970s, over 40 years of use for what today would be considered peanuts.

merciful-evans · July 2019

I've never played a Harley Benton (but I do have a one of their straps!).

But my cheap guitars are every bit the equal of my higher end guitars. Yes I have rewired them and replaced shabby hard wear on a couple to make them reliable.

In some ways, I prefer to gig a cheap guitar. At the end of a gig when I'm anxious to get packed up, no one bothers me with inane questions about the Squier or the CoolZ.

tony99 · July 2019

Henrytwang said:

tony99 said:

Henrytwang said:

Although I’d love to say that Harley Benton guitars are as good as anything out there I’ve played a few and have yet to find one I really like. I’m sure that with an electronics upgrade and a good setup a HB Les Paul could sound and play great but they’re just not for me. On the other hand neither are the expensive Custom Shop instruments from the likes of Gibson or Fender my sort of thing. Although there are lots of people who moan about the build quality of today’s top American brands I’ve yet to own a recent standard production Gibson or Fender that doesn’t play and sound fine.

so what? LP standard then? american strat? although not custom shop they'd both lean towards what I would call high end

Depends on how serious you are, buy a good used one and it’ll last you a lifetime. I own ordinary production Gibson’s and Fenders which I bought secondhand in the 1970s, over 40 years of use for what today would be considered peanuts.

I'm in at LP traditional and a Fender CP 60's, and they're good enough for me Henry me old twanger!!

Three-ColourSunburst · July 2019

guitars4you said:

So we buy a Harley Benton LP Style guitar for £250 ish from Thomann - Guess how much of that £250 goes into the UK economy - Either via vat, or corporation tax - Less than 1p - Sounds like a great move

There is one reason and one reason only that Thomann operate such a line and that is profit - Make it two reasons and add exclusivity, so no price matching - Factory to shop floor - No middle man - More profit ...

So, basically, Thomann's model allows them to make a profit whilst also offering their customers quality way above what might be expected at that price point - especially when compared to other models of manufacturing and distribution where the customer also has to shell out to keep dealers and distributors in business - as well as marketing men in new Audis, 'Directors of Brand experience' in vintage leather jackets, and so on - non of which add one iota of quality or value to the product.

As to how much profit goes to the UK economy, if the Great British public really cared about such things they wouldn't buy so many Audis, BMWs and other foreign-made goods - including Gibsons...

Philtre · July 2019

Three-ColourSunburst said:

As to how much profit goes to the UK economy, if the Great British public really cared about such things they wouldn't buy so many Audis, BMWs and other foreign-made goods - including Gibsons...

if the Great British public really cared about such things they wouldn't have voted for Brexit. But as 52% of Brits are complete and utter fuckwits, they did vote for it.

Sassafras · July 2019

What I don't like about places like Thomann, Amazon etc is they've contributed to the death of proper retail shops. The high streets are now solely populated by estate agents, charity shops, hairdressers and nail-bars.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

Comments