"Has it got all the paperwork?"

TINMAN82

adampeter said:

TINMAN82 said:

adampeter said:

TINMAN82 said:

Dan_Halen said:

Roysterdoyster said:

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

OMG this is hard. As I've said, like 3 times, yes, I'd take the one with paperwork. Why is that so difficult to understand? No, I would not pay any more for it but if it's there, then great. It's something that might be nice to have to have a little read through but I ascribe no monetary value to it. None. Nada. Diddly. Comprende?

If it has no monetary value to me then, given this is a debate over how it affects the price, I'm not sure what your point is.

Instinct tells me don’t get involved but it seems there’s a point you’re missing and it relates to economics.

If you and others are admittedly willing to overlook one guitar over another as it lacks paperwork then the open market for that guitar is potentially limited. It follows that the overlooked guitar may ultimately sell for less as buyers gravitate towards examples with paperwork. By extension, the COA could affect the “going rate”. That’s just fact whether or not you feel paperwork is worthless or not.

Under some circumstances, someone like yourself may come along early and pay full asking price without worrying about paperwork. For that particular sale, the COA was worthless. As @ICBM ;;;;; has said, that possibly applies to “most” real world sales, particularly lower priced guitars. But when you sell that guitar it could be a different story.

This situation is particularly applicable in modern times when many buy second hand online without trying first.

Not many (I hope) would argue that any rational player would always pick the better guitar “in hand”, irrespective of paperwork. But that potentially applies more to a situation where it’s possible to compare and contrast in person. Truth on both sides of the argument for sure.

The story earlier about the guy who refused a PRS he liked as the original case was torn is comical.

Nicely put, my only disagreement would the comment about "most real world sales" not being worried about COA/Certs
Anything high end, Fender CS, Gibson CS, PRS, etc will have their value affected, maybe not over 1 sale of 1 guitar , but certainly over a few sales of that same guitar

My point being that high end CS guitar sales are not reflective of “most real world sales”. As others have indicated, they must represent a minority of worldwide second hand sales for the same reason you don’t see many Aston Martins on the road.

Both sides of the argument have valid points and may be correct from certain perspectives.

I get you but the only sector this is really valid for is the high end stuff, no one was arguing that a hang tag on a mexican strat affected value, no one really cares about production level guitar paperwork.
Most real world sales wouldn't have COA or certs anyway

And I agree in the original post that these high ticket sales have a higher chance of paperwork affecting value. It will never affect 100% of those sales though. The logic may even work in reverse sometimes if a particularly rare and desirable model comes up..it being so rare and desirable. If Kirk Hammett lost the COA for Greeny (assuming that still exists) I doubt that would affect resale at all.

bgmartinsbridge

The Kirk example is very very niche and I agree, similarly the Gilmour strats recently sold have little to do with paperwork.

I'm addition, if you've got a rare fifties or sixties strat and it's got paperwork and provenance then it's absolutely worth more than if it doesn't. It will of course still sell with or without, just for less without it. 

Epsilon

I honestly don't understand how this thread has escalated to this point (and I've not read it all), but the concept should not be difficult.

If someone is willing to pay more for a COA then it drives the price up in the market, and there is really little else that needs to be said. If person 1 says it doesn't matter to them if the guitar has a COA, and is willing to pay price X for a guitar, but person 2 is willing to pay X + 5% to have a guitar with COA then it makes the COA valuable. This is about as fundamental as economics gets.

There seem to be a lot of people conflating the idea that they wouldn't pay more with idea that the market as a whole therefore wouldn't either. This is obviously not true.

RaymondLin

Everything collectible, yes, collectible, will fetch more with all the packaging and paperwork.  That is the mindset of a collector, as opposed to a "user".  Your day to day toaster, of course not.  

For example, vintage game carts is a big thing, if you have the original paper box with manual with your Nintendo cart, it will sell more than one that smells like cigarette smoke with teeth marks from your pet dog, even if they both work 100%.

I have recently sold a lot of camera gear, every piece of equipment that comes with a box worth keeping, I have a box for it.  Because it shows people, rightly or wrongly, that I have taken the care to keep the box and it translate to I take care of my gear when in use.    And it is true, I will get 10-20% more in sale with a box than without.  That's is just the nature of the market.  



Guitars is no exception, if the buyer has any percentage of a collecting mindset, the paperwork will add value to the purchase.  If you just want a guitar to play, then you won't care, you might not even care about the case and one of those people who put it in a gig bag and be done with it.

It however doesn't remove the fact that there are people out there who like to have that paperwork.

bgmartinsbridge

Boom @Epsilon - Nail On Head....


Drop The Mike. 

TINMAN82

bgmartinsbridge said:

The Kirk example is very very niche and I agree, similarly the Gilmour strats recently sold have little to do with paperwork.

However, if you've got a rare fifties or sixties strat and it's got paperwork and provenance then it's absolutely worth more than if it doesn't. It will of course still sell with or without, just for less without it. 

Anyone fancy to suggest that vintage guitars (not owned by an artist) with paperwork and provenance are worth the same as without?

Ok, now I agree with others that you’re being slightly obtuse...and my last few posts were generally in support of your “side”!

The vintage guitars you mention may or may not sell for less depending on the market and who’s looking. You can’t apply this as a hard and fast rule. If you are selling such a guitar without paperwork and you price it at the going rate for said guitar with paperwork and someone who doesn’t care comes along and buys it full price...then yes the guitar was worth the same. 

None of us us know what proportion of these high value sales worldwide are affected in this way. Some will some won’t. So we’re all right. Hopefully this thread ends soon! Over and out.

fandango

Dan_Halen said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen - If you don't feel paperwork has a value but other people feel it does have a value, then the paperwork must have a value.

If you buy a car and youre willing to pay a grand for it and someone else thinks it's worth 1200, then it's worth 1200.

It's very simple thinking. 

If it's the only car available to buy then that would be true. That's simple thinking. Maybe, just maybe, there is more than one second hand car on the market and not every single one of them is priced at 1200?

Bad example anyway. Paperwork with a car is not exactly the same thing.

As some have said, the COA is a supply-demand thing. Some care, some don’t. Big deal. If one person ascribes a value to it, what you going do, screw it up and throw the COA away and lose money?

Will those who don’t care about COA wise up and realise that there are those that do care. So why not take advantage of that when buying/selling a guitar? If you have the COA, the why not the feck include it with the guitar? How effing hard is it to make someone else happy? Why is it so hard to see the other side of the argument? If you are buying, and it includes the COA, what you going do? Say to the seller, “nah keep that junk”? Really? More fool you. Because if it helps sell a guitar at a later date and might make you more money, what’s the problem? Or do you live in a shoe box with a wife that hates clutter? FFS. This forum sucks sometimes.

bgmartinsbridge

@TINMAN82 - I agreed with you and put in the additional info about the Gilmour strats. 
Certainly wasn't meant to be obtuse. 
I was simply adding to the point.

I reread my comment and changed it from However to In addition  - reads better and makes more sense.


And as for previous comments, I was standing alone to a fair bit of abuse (not you, I'll add)  

Dan_Halen

fandango said:

Dan_Halen said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen - If you don't feel paperwork has a value but other people feel it does have a value, then the paperwork must have a value.

If you buy a car and youre willing to pay a grand for it and someone else thinks it's worth 1200, then it's worth 1200.

It's very simple thinking. 

If it's the only car available to buy then that would be true. That's simple thinking. Maybe, just maybe, there is more than one second hand car on the market and not every single one of them is priced at 1200?

Bad example anyway. Paperwork with a car is not exactly the same thing.

As some have said, the COA is a supply-demand thing. Some care, some don’t. Big deal. If one person ascribes a value to it, what you going do, screw it up and throw the COA away and lose money?

Will those who don’t care about COA wise up and realise that there are those that do care. So why not take advantage of that when buying/selling a guitar? If you have the COA, the why not the feck include it with the guitar? How effing hard is it to make someone else happy? Why is it so hard to see the other side of the argument? If you are buying, and it includes the COA, what you going do? Say to the seller, “nah keep that junk”? Really? More fool you. Because if it helps sell a guitar at a later date and might make you more money, what’s the problem? Or do you live in a shoe box with a wife that hates clutter? FFS. This forum sucks sometimes.

Jesus F-ing Christ - where did I say I would throw it away, not keep it or not include it in a sale? Maybe actually read my posts before replying with utter drivel. I even said I agree with it in principal even though it's never actual affected a purchase or a sale made by myself, anyone I know and seemingly others here.

I had actually tried to close out my input on this thread with my last post and say yes I see your point of view, but in my opinion don't agree, but then you chime in with that nonsense. All the facepalms.

TimmyO

@digitalscream is there a way I can stop getting notifications for this thread that I wish I hadn't started? 

Bellycaster

TimmyO said:

@digitalscream is there a way I can stop getting notifications for this thread that I wish I hadn't started? 

He can, but it will require you to complete the appropriate Paperwork first!

bgmartinsbridge

Imagine the guy who started the R8 thread.

On a positive, think of all the frets you're getting. 

digitalscream

bgmartinsbridge said:

Imagine the guy who started the R8 thread.

On a positive, think of all the frets you're getting. 

...or poor old @Emp_Fab with "Shit that boils your piss". 382 pages and counting...or 11,452 comment notifications

In answer to the question...no, there's no way to unwatch a thread you started. Sorry dude...

Iamnobody

It’s strange that this thread has got to 7 pages.

Some people place a value on a COA and some people don’t - I think we can all agree on that.

I’d also like to think that we can all agree that if you want your sale to appeal to the whole market and get top price, having the COA will assist you with a sale. It’s simple.

Anyway - here’s one with all the documents but some Herbert has taken the finish of the neck.

 https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F233323443790

No amount of documentation would redeem this guitar to this buyer (me) hence it’s almost worthless (to me) I’d have to pick it up at a price that allowed a refin on the neck. But then again I’d probably pass altogether and get one with its paintwork intact. 

Someone else might love that feel/aesthetic and pay the asking price to save them the time in sanding off the finish themselves. That buyer isn’t me.

SquireJapan

I remember when I first saw true vintage guitars in "vintage and rare" in London (this would be back in the 90s) they had a strat with all the original case candy.

At that time I thought "ooh, that's interesting", and that was the end of that.

It's a "credit" to marketing types who've been able to turn this into "limited editions" and a completely arbitrary "Certificate of Authenticity".

Good for them.

Nitefly

TimmyO said:

darthed1981 said:

TimmyO said:

If you are someone who asks this when thinking of buying a used guitar, what answer are you expecting? 

Context: I'm selling a few currently and have been asked this multiple times about a couple. Whatever answer I'm giving clearly isn't the expected one as it then goes silent.

One guitar is a Larry Carlton 335 which has a
Sort of passport book/certificate thing - I have provided pics of this

One is a McCarty Soapbar which I'm not aware comes with "paperwork" but is in its original case.

Just say "No I haven't, I nicked this one"

I'm tempted to start saying "no" then when they try to beat me down then confirm.i do have it and see where they go from there :-) 

And, in true @Sporky style, add £100 to your price 

Bolters

If I'm buying a guitar from someone I know, or I know the particular instrument well, then I don't mind if the case candy, certs, etc are missing.

If I'm buying a guitar I've never seen in person from a stranger, I absolutely want all evidence that the guitar is genuine. Certs, stickers, manuals. Especially international transactions. And if said instrument has nothing I'm likely to walk away until something similar comes up that I can be sure about.

That's my 2p on the subject. No idea how 'most' other people deal with the COA issue. Have at it.

zepp76

Bolters said:

If I'm buying a guitar from someone I know, or I know the particular instrument well, then I don't mind if the case candy, certs, etc are missing.

If I'm buying a guitar I've never seen in person from a stranger, I absolutely want all evidence that the guitar is genuine. Certs, stickers, manuals. Especially international transactions. And if said instrument has nothing I'm likely to walk away until something similar comes up that I can be sure about.

That's my 2p on the subject. No idea how 'most' other people deal with the COA issue. Have at it.

If you're buying a guitar you've never seen in person you do it in the time old traditional way of asking for lots of photos that you can scour to make sure it is genuine. Certs, stickers and manuals aren't the way to judge if a guitar is genuine if distance buying.

fandango

Dan_Halen said:

fandango said:

Dan_Halen said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen - If you don't feel paperwork has a value but other people feel it does have a value, then the paperwork must have a value.

If you buy a car and youre willing to pay a grand for it and someone else thinks it's worth 1200, then it's worth 1200.

It's very simple thinking. 

If it's the only car available to buy then that would be true. That's simple thinking. Maybe, just maybe, there is more than one second hand car on the market and not every single one of them is priced at 1200?

Bad example anyway. Paperwork with a car is not exactly the same thing.

As some have said, the COA is a supply-demand thing. Some care, some don’t. Big deal. If one person ascribes a value to it, what you going do, screw it up and throw the COA away and lose money?

Will those who don’t care about COA wise up and realise that there are those that do care. So why not take advantage of that when buying/selling a guitar? If you have the COA, the why not the feck include it with the guitar? How effing hard is it to make someone else happy? Why is it so hard to see the other side of the argument? If you are buying, and it includes the COA, what you going do? Say to the seller, “nah keep that junk”? Really? More fool you. Because if it helps sell a guitar at a later date and might make you more money, what’s the problem? Or do you live in a shoe box with a wife that hates clutter? FFS. This forum sucks sometimes.

Jesus F-ing Christ - where did I say I would throw it away, not keep it or not include it in a sale? Maybe actually read my posts before replying with utter drivel. I even said I agree with it in principal even though it's never actual affected a purchase or a sale made by myself, anyone I know and seemingly others here.

I had actually tried to close out my input on this thread with my last post and say yes I see your point of view, but in my opinion don't agree, but then you chime in with that nonsense. All the facepalms.

Brilliant. I wrote my piece to get a reaction, and not necessarily from Dan Halen. I suppose i could have not quoted Dan, and just chipped in with a meek pathetic standalone musing, or i could just as easily walked on by and not said anything at all. But where’s the fun in that?

Adey

I read another forum thread on the internet some while ago when someone was apparently wrong.

And now the same thing again!

I think I'm unlikely to see this again in my lifetime...