"Has it got all the paperwork?"

HarrySeven

fandango said:

Gotcha! You're really @HarrySeven in disguise, and I claim my £5!

Lol!

From my perspective, if a guitar comes with the case gubbins, it stays in the case and I keep it. Same with pedals (boxes, paperwork, etc).

I can see the point of provenance, blahblahblah with vintage or £££ gear, but I wouldn’t be bleating or angling for major discounts if it wasn’t there.

As others have said...I don’t buy guitars for investment purposes - it’s just because I like ‘em...

I suppose part of the issue issue is twofold:

a. Stuff is easier to fake than ever before (so people like the ‘comfort’ of additional evidence (although that too can be faked) and...

b. While info on t’interweb is available to all nowadays, it enables us all to become obsessed with minutae (and also allows the spread of misinformation, eg. ‘Lawsuit’, etc...)

adampeter

ICBM said:

adampeter said:

Being screwed down or asking for money off is a matter of perspective

The fact is with the COA you will have more buyers interested, with all other stuff be equal(ish), hence the devalue without it.

No, you're confusing devaluing with reducing interest. There are plenty of buyers who don't care about all the crap and will pay what the guitar is worth with or without it. Sell it to one of those.

adampeter said:

If there was no value to the COA/Cert why do fender/gibson/PRS use them?, 

To prove authenticity. Although how it really helps given a certificate is far more easily forged than a guitar, I'm not sure...

I'm really not sure how reducing interest in something doesn't devalue it, or where all these buyers are that you simply choose to sell stuff to.
Or how something with proven authenticity is valued the same as something without it?
Anyway, if people wanna throw away/lose there COA/certs and then expect no reduction in value, good luck to them

Collings

I will always want the COA's etc where possible so if I'm looking at a number of guitars not having the paperwork may make me pass on it in favour of one that has all the paperwork.. I would not try to knock the seller down.

I have brought a couple of high end guitars over the past 12 months that had their COA's missing. I didn't realise for one and just expected it to be in the case as it came from a very reliable dealer that did not mention it was missing .The seller was a little dishonest on the other.  I went to the effort of getting replacements for both of these, one from a USA builder and the other from the a UK builder. Sad I know but easy to do in these instances but I guess if they had been PRS, Gibson or Fender it would have been another story.

Dan_Halen

Is this even a thing? I just buy and sell based on the value of the instrument and would only discount or haggle if there was a case that should be included that is or isn’t there.

If the price is right, then not having some crappy bits of paper should not mean that you drop the price unless you’re desperate for a sale. Or, if buying, if the paperwork isn’t present then it’s simply a case of do you think the price is right for that guitar?

This can only be a problem for flippers who want to maximise their potential. Anyone who wants to actually use the thing won’t give a shit.

“I've been after this spec model for ages at this price. Think I might walk away though because the resale might be affected for a small portion of the market.” said no one ever.

Too much time worrying about perceived issues. If the guitar is priced right you will buy or you will sell. Stop overthinking. 

Dan_Halen

Also, just to clarify, I’m not discounting it completely. If you’re buying or selling something particularly niche then it’s just sensible as your target market is small. However, for something mainstream, it really won’t be an issue unless you’re utterly determined to squeeze the price as a buyer or seller.

xchrisv

Is the rise in people asking for the paperwork related to CITES concerns, perhaps? 

bgmartinsbridge

So just to ask, why does an R9 without a coa take sit on this forum or anywhere else for longer and get sold for less cash?

I presume they're only bought by collectors and not players! 


5 R9s for sale at £3000. One doesn't have a coa and all have similar tops, which get sold first?
The players answer is the one that plays the best - but you will go and see the one without the coa last. 

HarrySeven

bgmartinsbridge said:

a. “If lots if buyers think the paperwork is valuable then it is, simple.”

b. “...when the majority of people want something different to you”.

Firstly, there’s something depressing around this whole debate.

Secondly, this is the ramblings of H7...I’ll get me coat.

As I said earlier, in the age of t’interweb, we’ve become obsessed with forensic detail. Everyone’s an expert - and manufacturers obviously exploit this. It’s a sad fact, but people like to think they’re breathing rarefied air. More so now than ever...it’s just one long narcissistic wank-fest.

While on that topic, there’s something hideously vulgar about the whole “Custom Shop”, “Private Stock”, blahblahblah idea, pandering to the perceived desirability of highly-individualised commodities (although ‘twas ever thus). Beneath this are ever-increasing, microscopically-differentiated (and vast) product ranges (vital to snare that additional tiny market %). It’s just marketing, nothing more. 

Collecting in the volume I do, I’m perhaps not one to talk, but then it’s a different economy of scale and values. I own plenty of vintage/higher-end stuff, but I’m just as excited by a Kimbara Strat copy as a pre-CBS Jazzmaster. I really couldn’t give a gnat’s knacker if this year’s R8 is more accurate than last year’s R8, or if PRS himself hand-carved his latest creation from the one remaining plank of Noah’s Ark, garnishing it with bits of one of the lost Faberge Imperial eggs.

IMHO, my responses to the two snippets from @bgmartinsbridge post would be:

a. Because they’re told to think that.

b. Just because you’re outnumbered, it doesn’t make you wrong.

bgmartinsbridge

@HarrySeven - the sad thing is I partly agree.

I short - because it is, doesn't make it morally right. However it is.


We all 'wish' that paperwork on mid to high end guitars would not effect the price but it does, that's the truth, end of. 

Some people on here don't care about paperwork and are happy to take guitars without it but the majority of people buying guitars want the paperwork, hence why prices are higher with them and lower without. 

It's not really a debate when the market drives the facts. It's basic supply and demand (the majority of of people want it or believe it etc). 

ICBM

bgmartinsbridge said:

the majority of people buying guitars want the paperwork

Wrong.

It’s a small minority who buy and sell high-end guitars, and possibly even a minority of those.

bgmartinsbridge

@icbm - totally disagree.

That why on here, a mod to high end guitar without paperwork sells for less and takes longer to sell.

I 'personally' don't think it's right that paperwork has an impact but it does. 


You 'personally' may not care but other people on here, when it comes to spending their cash, do. 




I'll repeat a previous point I made - 5 R9s for sale, 1 doesn't have paperwork. They're all fairly local and have similar tops. Which do you go a try first and last? 

It's like a car with and without a service history - you want it but without full history you take the one with history over it. 


#If you want a case in point try and sell a Gibson R8 or R9 on here without paperwork and see what happens#

ICBM

You said it is the majority of people buying guitars. You are wrong, period.

It’s a minority who buy and sell high-end guitars, at most.

And personally, if I wanted to buy an R8 or R9, whether or not there was a piece of paper in the case would have precisely zero input into the decision.

bgmartinsbridge

What a silly comment. 

Again you use 'I'. 

Next time you sell a guitar on here, list it without paperwork and see what happens. 



Noone on this thread is talking about bottom end guitars. 

StuartMac290

ICBM said:

You said it is the majority of people buying guitars. You are wrong, period.

It’s a minority who buy and sell high-end guitars, at most.

And personally, if I wanted to buy an R8 or R9, whether or not there was a piece of paper in the case would have precisely zero input into the decision.

Precisely. It's purely an internet forum thing - step outside of that into the real world and you'll find the vast majority of guitar players don't give a toss. In fact, most of them don't even know whether or not something is meant to have "paperwork" or "case candy" (cringe!) in the first place.

As Harry Seven quite rightly says, this is purely marketing appealing to the internet-driven vanity of everyone wishing to seem like an expert. More meaningless stats are bandied about on forums than ever before, people refuse to even try a guitar if it weighs half a pound more (!!) than their own self-imposed arbitrary weight limit. It's all very silly.

I've never had to accept less on a sale of ANY guitar, Custom Shop or otherwise, because it didn't have all its "stuff". It would never stop me buying a good guitar either.

ICBM

bgmartinsbridge said:

Next time you sell a guitar on here, list it without paperwork and see what happens.

lol

I’ve sold my guitars to people who actually play them and none of them have asked for the ‘paperwork’... ever.

That includes several PRSs and a couple of Gibsons.

I also work for a shop and I can’t think of one case where ‘paperwork’ has had any bearing on the sale price.

As StuartMac290 said, it’s an internet forum thing.

UnclePsychosis

DrJazzTap said:

DefaultM said:

Once had a guy try to get £50 off a Korean Tele I was selling because I'd replaced the wiring with all USA parts. 

They do indeed walk among us 

...and are allowed to vote, look after children, handle sharp objects, drive, use gas barbecues, and all the rest of it. Really rather scary! 

Blaendulais

Only sold 10 guitars ever. Values between 800-1600 Never been asked for paperwork. Once got asked did a 20 year old strat have any scratches.  Showed him the door

bgmartinsbridge

Pmsl - it's only a forum thing. 

Only 'real players' should buy guitars and they don't ask for paperwork and everyone else should just fade away. 

And again, it's top end guitars, not 600 - 1500 quid. 

EvanEvanNorth

At one time the biggest music store in the city had so many gibsons in stock you were lucky if you were supplied the actual case the guitar was shipped in and more than a few had little or no certs.
Unless it was a custom shop or similar they just seemed to grab any of the brown gibson cases from the store room and put the guitar in it. 

Whitecat

I sold a guitar once to someone who I later found out was a covert dealer (with a bricks & mortar shop and everything) - he insisted that the guitar should have a COA. I insisted they never issued COAs for that particular model (I never got one - everything always stays in the case when I buy.) Was it a dealbreaker? No... but it was an interesting standoff especially since later on it turned out he was a dealer for that brand new too.