"Has it got all the paperwork?"

prlgmnr

Even from this thread alone isn't there enough evidence that the thrilling conclusion ought to be.....

some people care about paperwork, and some people don't

bgmartinsbridge

I'm being awkward? - pmsl.

Given a choice between a guitar with or with own paperwork, everyone goes for paperwork. As admitted by someone above who doesn't want paperwork! 

And it makes it easier to sell, even if you don't care about the paperwork. 

I think the awkwardness is coming from the other side, people who can't accept that paperwork is better than no paperwork. Just plain odd. 


'I don't care about paperwork, paperwork is for muppets - err, oh that's ones got paperwork and that one doesn't, I'll have the paperwork please!' 


And totally agree with @Adey - as has been said in this thread above it's custom shops Fenders, Gibsons and vintage provenance. No one cares less about paperwork for Arias or Squires :-) 

ICBM

bgmartinsbridge said:

I'm being awkward? - pmsl.

Given a choice between a guitar with or with own paperwork, everyone goes for paperwork!

Wrong.

You're simply projecting your prejudice into other people.

I would pick the guitar I liked best *regardless* of whether it had or not. It has precisely zero importance to me whatsoever.

And I know I’m very far from alone.

You need to just accept this.

bgmartinsbridge

Lol. It's your prejudice...

You keep using 'me' and 'I'. 

It's like having a discussion with a teenager who says your wrong, your wrong, your wrong. 

I take this route to work and if you don't do what I do you're wrong, period. It's mental. 

You're basically using your own personal view to suggest everyone agrees with you and noone on the planet has any interest in paperwork - even though plenty of people and shops on here have said they do. 

Perhaps you should speak to Fender and Gibson and tell them to stop producing it. 


The outcome of this thread is some people couldnt careless about paperwork, some people want paperwork, everyone will go for the guitar with paperwork if there are two similar ones at the same price and as at the start of the thread someone 'hates' those people who want it. 

Blaendulais

bgmartinsbridge said:

I'm being awkward? - pmsl.

Given a choice between a guitar with or with own paperwork, everyone goes for paperwork. As admitted by someone above who doesn't want paperwork! 

And it makes it easier to sell, even if you don't care about the paperwork. 

I think the awkwardness is coming from the other side, people who can't accept that paperwork is better than no paperwork. Just plain odd. 


'I don't care about paperwork, paperwork is for muppets - err, oh that's ones got paperwork and that one doesn't, I'll have the paperwork please!' 


And totally agree with @Adey - as has been said in this thread above it's custom shops Fenders, Gibsons and vintage provenance. No one cares less about paperwork for Arias or Squires :-) 

Wrong you would go for the better guitar!!!!!

ICBM

bgmartinsbridge said:

everyone will go for the guitar with paperwork if there are two similar ones at the same price

No, they won’t. You’re wrong, period. It’s not me who is projecting their prejudice onto others, it’s you. If you’re too stubborn to understand why, I suggest you get out of your internet forum echo chamber and find out how people buy guitars in the real world.

As Blaendulais said, if you want to play it you would buy the better guitar. They are actually different when you play two in person... and it’s nothing to do with what’s in the case pocket.

Bye.

darthed1981

TimmyO said:

If you are someone who asks this when thinking of buying a used guitar, what answer are you expecting? 

Context: I'm selling a few currently and have been asked this multiple times about a couple. Whatever answer I'm giving clearly isn't the expected one as it then goes silent.

One guitar is a Larry Carlton 335 which has a
Sort of passport book/certificate thing - I have provided pics of this

One is a McCarty Soapbar which I'm not aware comes with "paperwork" but is in its original case.

Just say "No I haven't, I nicked this one"

bgmartinsbridge

Wow - on the verge of abuse.

Which in the real world generally highlights someone with poor intelligence. 


In the immortal words of Winston Churchill - If you were right I'd agree. 

Bye - lol

zepp76

ICBM said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

everyone will go for the guitar with paperwork if there are two similar ones at the same price

No, they won’t. You’re wrong, period. It’s not me who is projecting their prejudice onto others, it’s you. If you’re too stubborn to understand why, I suggest you get out of your internet forum echo chamber and find out how people buy guitars in the real world.

As Blaendulais said, if you want to play it you would buy the better guitar. They are actually different when you play two in person... and it’s nothing to do with what’s in the case pocket.

Bye.

Any sane person would choose the better feeling/playing guitar regardless of paperwork.

bgmartinsbridge

@zepp76 - but which would you go to see first?

4 have paperwork and one doesn't. 

Similar nice tops and they're all the same price. 

And you don't know which plays better than the other.

That's the point I was making.


Obviously you can go and see all five. 

The point I'm making is paperwork work has a perceived value in a private sale, as in the above example lots of people would see the one without the paperwork last. 

CMW335

I once had an admin for a Facebook page threaten to remove my ads if I could not produce a COA for them. Given it was a 1964 Martin D28 and a 1970 Custom Les Paul there was little chance of that lol. His presumption was because they were valuable they were fake... Facebook is a strange place.

From my experience I have sold guitars with missing COA and it is an absolute fact that there are buyers who will use this to try and bring the price down. Sure there are others who wont care but definitely more often than not a missing COA for CS Fender or Gibson has led to that conversation with the buyer reducing their offer or even deciding not to purchase. I have even had to purchase replacement certs from Fender in the past before the buyer would proceed, some people actually consider the COA as provenance... surely paperwork would be easier to fake than a guitar?    

zepp76

bgmartinsbridge said:

@zepp76 - but which would you go to see first?

4 have paperwork and one doesn't. 

Similar nice tops and they're all the same price. 

And you don't know which plays better than the other.

That's the point I was making.


Obviously you can go and see all five. 

The point I'm making is paperwork work has a perceived value in a private sale, as in the above example lots of people would see the one without the paperwork last. 

I fully understand where you're coming from but if I was spending decent money I would certainly try them all and pick the best one that suited me, it's a funny old world and we all have differing opinions but when it comes to choosing the right guitar paperwork just wouldn't be a deciding factor........to me! 

bgmartinsbridge

@zepp76 - totally agree, we all have differing opinions.

I guess the point I'd make in this fast paced modern world, lots of people don't have the time to see all the guitars and therefore we use the Internet to shop (bricks and mortar shops online, ebay, Facebook, other) to find what we want. Narrowing our search before visiting to view. 
If there are multiple versions of the same thing for sale and one of many choices doesn't have the same as the others on offer, people take the convenient and cheapest route and avoid that item. 

@cmw335 - spot on. 

zepp76

bgmartinsbridge said:

@zepp76 - totally agree, we all have differing opinions.

I guess the point I'd make in this fast paced modern world, lots of people don't have the time to see all the guitars and therefore we use the Internet to shop (bricks and mortar shops online, ebay, Facebook, other) to find what we want. Narrowing our search before visiting to view. 
If there are multiple versions of the same thing for sale and one of many choices doesn't have the same as the others on offer, people take the convenient and cheapest route.

@cmw335 - spot on. 

That's just it, if I was only spending a couple of hundred quid I'd be happy to buy it unseen and take the chance, if I was spending what I consider big money (£1000+) I wouldn't dream of buying without trying.

Dan_Halen

bgmartinsbridge said:

I'm being awkward? - pmsl.

Given a choice between a guitar with or with own paperwork, everyone goes for paperwork. As admitted by someone above who doesn't want paperwork! 

And it makes it easier to sell, even if you don't care about the paperwork. 

I think the awkwardness is coming from the other side, people who can't accept that paperwork is better than no paperwork. Just plain odd. 


'I don't care about paperwork, paperwork is for muppets - err, oh that's ones got paperwork and that one doesn't, I'll have the paperwork please!' 


And totally agree with @Adey - as has been said in this thread above it's custom shops Fenders, Gibsons and vintage provenance. No one cares less about paperwork for Arias or Squires :-) 

You're obviously really struggling with this concept. If the paperwork is there, then great, I'll take it. I'll chuck it in a drawer or in a pocket of the case and forget about it. If not, then I could not care less in the slightest. Also, I haven't said I don't want it  despite you putting words in my mouth (although I'm completely un-fussed), simply that I will not pay extra for it.

If there are 2 utterly identical guitars in every way priced at £2500 for the one without magic paper and £2700 for the one with magic paper then I would buy the £2500 guitar. If some people will buy the more expensive one the good luck to them. Yes, there may be some that will, however a small sample doesn't dictate the entire market follows suit.

You seem to be worried about the use of 'me' and 'I' - not sure why that's a problem because it's drawing on actual experience rather than imagined scenarios.

The inclusion of paperwork has never influenced the price any guitar either myself or any friends have bought or sold. This can only be an issue in this hypothetical situation that you've contrived where you are the only seller and there is only 1 buyer in the world for your guitar and he wants a discount and refuses to budge. That's not reality.

I understand your point of view... I just disagree with it and think it's, in reality and in *most* circumstances, irrelevant. You, however, are just happy to say 'you're wrong because I said so' then misquote.

This is just going round in circles now. I'm sure if you're selling any guitars in the near future it's great that you'll be happy to knock a few quid off if the limited edition free commemorative plectrum isn't present in the case!

Roysterdoyster

I wonder why fender etc put the Candy/Cert/booklet/paperwork/tools in in the first place then? In an age where cost cutting is king why don’t they just bin them then and sell the guitar for the same price and therefore increase profits? Just sayin like 

CMW335

Debate seems to be getting quite heated on this one. I think simply we have all had different experiences with buyers and all I can say from my own experience is I have encountered the issue with people making lower offers based on missing COA and I would say that's a majority albeit on a handful of guitars but it is 100% a thing. 

I am selling a Stig Burst les Paul just now and had a potential buyer seek out paperwork as well as contact the dealer who commissioned it, a previous owner and another luthier with all sorts of questions and hey fair enough that's their prerogative. I would love a buyer who would simply come and play the guitar and decide whether to buy it on merit alone, I am sure the guitar would be gone by now but unfortunately the "player buyer" seems to be less prominent. 

Roysterdoyster

Dan_Halen said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

I'm being awkward? - pmsl.

Given a choice between a guitar with or with own paperwork, everyone goes for paperwork. As admitted by someone above who doesn't want paperwork! 

And it makes it easier to sell, even if you don't care about the paperwork. 

I think the awkwardness is coming from the other side, people who can't accept that paperwork is better than no paperwork. Just plain odd. 


'I don't care about paperwork, paperwork is for muppets - err, oh that's ones got paperwork and that one doesn't, I'll have the paperwork please!' 


And totally agree with @Adey - as has been said in this thread above it's custom shops Fenders, Gibsons and vintage provenance. No one cares less about paperwork for Arias or Squires :-) 

You're obviously really struggling with this concept. If the paperwork is there, then great, I'll take it. I'll chuck it in a drawer or in a pocket of the case and forget about it. If not, then I could not care less in the slightest. Also, I haven't said I don't want it  despite you putting words in my mouth (although I'm completely un-fussed), simply that I will not pay extra for it.

If there are 2 utterly identical guitars in every way priced at £2500 for the one without magic paper and £2700 for the one with magic paper then I would buy the £2500 guitar. If some people will buy the more expensive one the good luck to them. Yes, there may be some that will, however a small sample doesn't dictate the entire market follows suit.

You seem to be worried about the use of 'me' and 'I' - not sure why that's a problem because it's drawing on actual experience rather than imagined scenarios.

The inclusion of paperwork has never influenced the price any guitar either myself or any friends have bought or sold. This can only be an issue in this hypothetical situation that you've contrived where you are the only seller and there is only 1 buyer in the world for your guitar and he wants a discount and refuses to budge. That's not reality.

I understand your point of view... I just disagree with it and think it's, in reality and in *most* circumstances, irrelevant. You, however, are just happy to say 'you're wrong because I said so' then misquote.

This is just going round in circles now. I'm sure if you're selling any guitars in the near future it's great that you'll be happy to knock a few quid off if the limited edition free commemorative plectrum isn't present in the case!

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

TimmyO

darthed1981 said:

TimmyO said:

If you are someone who asks this when thinking of buying a used guitar, what answer are you expecting? 

Context: I'm selling a few currently and have been asked this multiple times about a couple. Whatever answer I'm giving clearly isn't the expected one as it then goes silent.

One guitar is a Larry Carlton 335 which has a
Sort of passport book/certificate thing - I have provided pics of this

One is a McCarty Soapbar which I'm not aware comes with "paperwork" but is in its original case.

Just say "No I haven't, I nicked this one"

I'm tempted to start saying "no" then when they try to beat me down then confirm.i do have it and see where they go from there :-) 

adampeter

Wow there's some dense people on this thread

@bgmartinsbridge is absolutely correct on this, like talking to teenagers 
So wide of the mark with their answers it comical, of course you buy the guitar you like best regardless of coa/cert, it will still be worth less than the one with it, fact....
Same with watches, etc.....in fact anything that can be faked.
Personally i couldn't give a flying as long as i know this, and if the "proper guitar players" can't get their heads around fact, well hey ho its their loss