"Has it got all the paperwork?"

Dan_Halen

Roysterdoyster said:

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

OMG this is hard. As I've said, like 3 times, yes, I'd take the one with paperwork. Why is that so difficult to understand? No, I would not pay any more for it but if it's there, then great. It's something that might be nice to have to have a little read through but I ascribe no monetary value to it. None. Nada. Diddly. Comprende?

If it has no monetary value to me then, given this is a debate over how it affects the price, I'm not sure what your point is.

TimmyO

adampeter said:

Wow there's some dense people on this thread

@bgmartinsbridge is absolutely correct on this, like talking to teenagers 
So wide of the mark with their answers it comical, of course you buy the guitar you like best regardless of coa/cert, it will still be worth less than the one with it, fact....
Same with watches, etc.....in fact anything that can be faked.
Personally i couldn't give a flying as long as i know this, and if the "proper guitar players" can't get their heads around fact, well hey ho its their loss

If the COA is about provenance, surely a COA is easier to fake than the darned guitar? 

bgmartinsbridge

It's a little like GCSE psychology - people can't understand that other people have a different opinion to themselves.

Go to a shop, no paperwork on a custom shop strat or Gibson. They will discount it, it's incomplete. 

Several similar custom shop strats for sale, one has missing paperwork. Most people will expect it to be cheaper, as it's incomplete.

Some people don't care about the paperwork, agree, but some some do - guess what, that means the paperwork has a value because some people do. 

adampeter

TimmyO said:

adampeter said:

Wow there's some dense people on this thread

@bgmartinsbridge is absolutely correct on this, like talking to teenagers 
So wide of the mark with their answers it comical, of course you buy the guitar you like best regardless of coa/cert, it will still be worth less than the one with it, fact....
Same with watches, etc.....in fact anything that can be faked.
Personally i couldn't give a flying as long as i know this, and if the "proper guitar players" can't get their heads around fact, well hey ho its their loss

If the COA is about provenance, surely a COA is easier to fake than the darned guitar? 

I give up mate, its honestly too much like hard work, you do your thing and i will do mine, its all good

Dan_Halen

adampeter said:

Wow there's some dense people on this thread

@bgmartinsbridge is absolutely correct on this, like talking to teenagers 
So wide of the mark with their answers it comical, of course you buy the guitar you like best regardless of coa/cert, it will still be worth less than the one with it, fact....
Same with watches, etc.....in fact anything that can be faked.
Personally i couldn't give a flying as long as i know this, and if the "proper guitar players" can't get their heads around fact, well hey ho its their loss

If you can't tell the difference between a Gibson CS and a Chibson without a bit of paper then good luck to you. The guitar itself is all the 'paperwork' you need. Not some tag. Just because you keep saying 'fact' doesn't make you right.

Calling me dense because I disagree with you is rude, especially when you've got the cheek to then call out others for it being 'like talking to teenagers'. Calling people names then telling others they're being childish - I mean really? Calm down pal.

Time for the mods I think.

Roysterdoyster

Dan_Halen said:

Roysterdoyster said:

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

OMG this is hard. As I've said, like 3 times, yes, I'd take the one with paperwork. Why is that so difficult to understand? No, I would not pay any more for it but if it's there, then great. It's something that might be nice to have to have a little read through but I ascribe no monetary value to it. None. Nada. Diddly. Comprende?

If it has no monetary value to me then, given this is a debate over how it affects the price, I'm not sure what your point is.

Merely that in your example you implied that a seller would put £200 on paperwork. This is just fun though, if you’re finding it hard, might I suggest stepping away? It’s not worth your happiness

bgmartinsbridge

@Dan_Halen - If you don't feel paperwork has a value but other people feel it does have a value, then the paperwork must have a value.

If you buy a car and youre willing to pay a grand for it and someone else thinks it's worth 1200, then it's worth 1200.

It's very simple thinking. 

adampeter

Dan_Halen said:

adampeter said:

Wow there's some dense people on this thread

@bgmartinsbridge is absolutely correct on this, like talking to teenagers 
So wide of the mark with their answers it comical, of course you buy the guitar you like best regardless of coa/cert, it will still be worth less than the one with it, fact....
Same with watches, etc.....in fact anything that can be faked.
Personally i couldn't give a flying as long as i know this, and if the "proper guitar players" can't get their heads around fact, well hey ho its their loss

If you can't tell the difference between a Gibson CS and a Chibson without a bit of paper then good luck to you. The guitar itself is all the 'paperwork' you need. Not some tag. Just because you keep saying 'fact' doesn't make you right.

Calling me dense because I disagree with you is rude, especially when you've got the cheek to then call out others for it being 'like talking to teenagers'. Calling people names then telling others they're being childish - I mean really? Calm down pal.

Time for the mods I think.

I give up mate, you're right of course, all fakes are easy to spot
The dense comment was a general comment, not aimed at you personally, better get the mods to split us all up, don't want to get jumped at playtime   

TimmyO

Threads you regret starting.... 

bgmartinsbridge

@TimmyO - better on the golf course.
Good luck with the lessons :-) 

Dan_Halen

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen - If you don't feel paperwork has a value but other people feel it does have a value, then the paperwork must have a value.

If you buy a car and youre willing to pay a grand for it and someone else thinks it's worth 1200, then it's worth 1200.

It's very simple thinking. 

If it's the only car available to buy then that would be true. That's simple thinking. Maybe, just maybe, there is more than one second hand car on the market and not every single one of them is priced at 1200?

Bad example anyway. Paperwork with a car is not exactly the same thing.

TINMAN82

Dan_Halen said:

Roysterdoyster said:

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

OMG this is hard. As I've said, like 3 times, yes, I'd take the one with paperwork. Why is that so difficult to understand? No, I would not pay any more for it but if it's there, then great. It's something that might be nice to have to have a little read through but I ascribe no monetary value to it. None. Nada. Diddly. Comprende?

If it has no monetary value to me then, given this is a debate over how it affects the price, I'm not sure what your point is.

Instinct tells me don’t get involved but it seems there’s a point you’re missing and it relates to economics.

If you and others are admittedly willing to overlook one guitar over another as it lacks paperwork then the open market for that guitar is potentially limited. It follows that the overlooked guitar may ultimately sell for less as buyers gravitate towards examples with paperwork. By extension, the COA could affect the “going rate”. That’s just fact whether or not you feel paperwork is worthless or not.

Under some circumstances, someone like yourself may come along early and pay full asking price without worrying about paperwork. For that particular sale, the COA was worthless. As @ICBM ;;; has said, that possibly applies to “most” real world sales, particularly lower priced guitars. But when you sell that guitar it could be a different story.

This situation is particularly applicable in modern times when many buy second hand online without trying first.

Not many (I hope) would argue that any rational player would always pick the better guitar “in hand”, irrespective of paperwork. But that potentially applies more to a situation where it’s possible to compare and contrast in person. Truth on both sides of the argument for sure.

The story earlier about the guy who refused a PRS he liked as the original case was torn is comical.

Dan_Halen

Roysterdoyster said:

Merely that in your example you implied that a seller would put £200 on paperwork. This is just fun though, if you’re finding it hard, might I suggest stepping away? It’s not worth your happiness

It was an example to illustrate a point. Obviously a concept that went way over your head. Thanks for patronizing me though with a dumb remark :-)

bgmartinsbridge

The point still stands, if you think that paperwork is worthless but one other person thinks it has a value, then it has a value. 

adampeter

TINMAN82 said:

Dan_Halen said:

Roysterdoyster said:

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

OMG this is hard. As I've said, like 3 times, yes, I'd take the one with paperwork. Why is that so difficult to understand? No, I would not pay any more for it but if it's there, then great. It's something that might be nice to have to have a little read through but I ascribe no monetary value to it. None. Nada. Diddly. Comprende?

If it has no monetary value to me then, given this is a debate over how it affects the price, I'm not sure what your point is.

Instinct tells me don’t get involved but it seems there’s a point you’re missing and it relates to economics.

If you and others are admittedly willing to overlook one guitar over another as it lacks paperwork then the open market for that guitar is potentially limited. It follows that the overlooked guitar may ultimately sell for less as buyers gravitate towards examples with paperwork. By extension, the COA could affect the “going rate”. That’s just fact whether or not you feel paperwork is worthless or not.

Under some circumstances, someone like yourself may come along early and pay full asking price without worrying about paperwork. For that particular sale, the COA was worthless. As @ICBM ;;; has said, that possibly applies to “most” real world sales, particularly lower priced guitars. But when you sell that guitar it could be a different story.

This situation is particularly applicable in modern times when many buy second hand online without trying first.

Not many (I hope) would argue that any rational player would always pick the better guitar “in hand”, irrespective of paperwork. But that potentially applies more to a situation where it’s possible to compare and contrast in person. Truth on both sides of the argument for sure.

The story earlier about the guy who refused a PRS he liked as the original case was torn is comical.

Nicely put, my only disagreement would the comment about "most real world sales" not being worried about COA/Certs
Anything high end, Fender CS, Gibson CS, PRS, etc will have their value affected, maybe not over 1 sale of 1 guitar , but certainly over a few sales of that same guitar

Roysterdoyster

Dan_Halen said:

Roysterdoyster said:

Merely that in your example you implied that a seller would put £200 on paperwork. This is just fun though, if you’re finding it hard, might I suggest stepping away? It’s not worth your happiness

It was an example to illustrate a point. Obviously a concept that went way over your head. Thanks for patronizing me though with a dumb remark :-)

Come on man, just having a wee bit of a laugh. Not patronisation intended. My sense of humour didn’t come with the right paperwork! I always knew that would come back to bite me.

TINMAN82

adampeter said:

TINMAN82 said:

Dan_Halen said:

Roysterdoyster said:

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

OMG this is hard. As I've said, like 3 times, yes, I'd take the one with paperwork. Why is that so difficult to understand? No, I would not pay any more for it but if it's there, then great. It's something that might be nice to have to have a little read through but I ascribe no monetary value to it. None. Nada. Diddly. Comprende?

If it has no monetary value to me then, given this is a debate over how it affects the price, I'm not sure what your point is.

Instinct tells me don’t get involved but it seems there’s a point you’re missing and it relates to economics.

If you and others are admittedly willing to overlook one guitar over another as it lacks paperwork then the open market for that guitar is potentially limited. It follows that the overlooked guitar may ultimately sell for less as buyers gravitate towards examples with paperwork. By extension, the COA could affect the “going rate”. That’s just fact whether or not you feel paperwork is worthless or not.

Under some circumstances, someone like yourself may come along early and pay full asking price without worrying about paperwork. For that particular sale, the COA was worthless. As @ICBM ;;;; has said, that possibly applies to “most” real world sales, particularly lower priced guitars. But when you sell that guitar it could be a different story.

This situation is particularly applicable in modern times when many buy second hand online without trying first.

Not many (I hope) would argue that any rational player would always pick the better guitar “in hand”, irrespective of paperwork. But that potentially applies more to a situation where it’s possible to compare and contrast in person. Truth on both sides of the argument for sure.

The story earlier about the guy who refused a PRS he liked as the original case was torn is comical.

Nicely put, my only disagreement would the comment about "most real world sales" not being worried about COA/Certs
Anything high end, Fender CS, Gibson CS, PRS, etc will have their value affected, maybe not over 1 sale of 1 guitar , but certainly over a few sales of that same guitar

My point being that high end CS guitar sales are not reflective of “most real world sales”. As others have indicated, they must represent a minority of worldwide second hand sales for the same reason you don’t see many Aston Martins on the road.

Both sides of the argument have valid points and may be correct from certain perspectives.

Dan_Halen

bgmartinsbridge said:

The point still stands, if you think that paperwork is worthless but one other person thinks it has a value, then it has a value. 

Only in a trade. If the buyer or seller ascribe it no value then it has....wait for it.... no value.

Look man, seemingly unlike the other way round, I totally see your point of view and think, technically, you're not wrong. I just don't think its a real world issue. Special circumstances excluded - super high-end, collectors items etc..

I'm no authority whatsoever but I've bought and sold loads of guitars and amps of reasonable value over the last 20 years or so and never once had paperwork even mentioned (beyond a 'it's in the case if you're interested'). If I a get a buyer who tries to knock the price down because something isn't there I'll politely say thanks but no thanks. If the instrument is priced right then it has always sold.

If, one day, I end up with a guitar that I just can't sell for years because I won't knock 50 quid off as the paperwork is missing, I'll come back and buy you all a pint as I tuck in to my humble pie.

bgmartinsbridge

All throughout this thread we have focused on high end guitars, as those are what people ask has it got paperwork.

Noone is talking about low to mid guitars, where noone requests paperwork. 

Where people request paperwork, it has a value because those people put a value on it. 

The people who don't put a value on it pay what they feel itls fair.

But as I said above, if one person places a value on paperwork then it has a value. Simples. 

adampeter

TINMAN82 said:

adampeter said:

TINMAN82 said:

Dan_Halen said:

Roysterdoyster said:

You are putting an arbitrary £200 value on paperwork and I don’t think anyone is suggesting it’s worth £200. If both guitars were priced at £2500 I’d take a fair guess you’d take the one with paperwork, which would mean therefore it has some value?

OMG this is hard. As I've said, like 3 times, yes, I'd take the one with paperwork. Why is that so difficult to understand? No, I would not pay any more for it but if it's there, then great. It's something that might be nice to have to have a little read through but I ascribe no monetary value to it. None. Nada. Diddly. Comprende?

If it has no monetary value to me then, given this is a debate over how it affects the price, I'm not sure what your point is.

Instinct tells me don’t get involved but it seems there’s a point you’re missing and it relates to economics.

If you and others are admittedly willing to overlook one guitar over another as it lacks paperwork then the open market for that guitar is potentially limited. It follows that the overlooked guitar may ultimately sell for less as buyers gravitate towards examples with paperwork. By extension, the COA could affect the “going rate”. That’s just fact whether or not you feel paperwork is worthless or not.

Under some circumstances, someone like yourself may come along early and pay full asking price without worrying about paperwork. For that particular sale, the COA was worthless. As @ICBM ;;;; has said, that possibly applies to “most” real world sales, particularly lower priced guitars. But when you sell that guitar it could be a different story.

This situation is particularly applicable in modern times when many buy second hand online without trying first.

Not many (I hope) would argue that any rational player would always pick the better guitar “in hand”, irrespective of paperwork. But that potentially applies more to a situation where it’s possible to compare and contrast in person. Truth on both sides of the argument for sure.

The story earlier about the guy who refused a PRS he liked as the original case was torn is comical.

Nicely put, my only disagreement would the comment about "most real world sales" not being worried about COA/Certs
Anything high end, Fender CS, Gibson CS, PRS, etc will have their value affected, maybe not over 1 sale of 1 guitar , but certainly over a few sales of that same guitar

My point being that high end CS guitar sales are not reflective of “most real world sales”. As others have indicated, they must represent a minority of worldwide second hand sales for the same reason you don’t see many Aston Martins on the road.

Both sides of the argument have valid points and may be correct from certain perspectives.

I get you but the only sector this is really valid for is the high end stuff, no one was arguing that a hang tag on a mexican strat affected value, no one really cares about production level guitar paperwork.
Most real world sales wouldn't have COA or certs anyway