RIP: Amps

dindude

Ok, a little bit overdramatic, but it’s striking how few traditional amps are either at NAMM or if they are, they’re not getting any press. For valve amps, I see the new Soldano coming through from Boutique Amp Distribution, Fender has a hardwired Princeton, and I think there’s some new stuff from Fryette. And that’s it. 

A few hybrid valve pre-amp with class D power amps, the rest digital amps and modelling floorboards.

See I wouldn’t mind at all, seriously - cheaper, lighter, more options - but every one of them to a man sounds utter shite in the demos. The Neural Quad, the Line 6 GO, the Victory V4 blah blah blah, just piss poor blandness.

Rant over, I know I’m probably on my own here but need to get off my chest.

thecolourbox

Or, it could be that the valve amp just doesn't need to be improved whereas the other tech does?

WiresDreamDisasters

I've already got four exceptional 100-watter valve amps! Now what I'm interested in is problem solving tools. I know they might not sound the best, but if they get me 98% of the way there and save me time, energy, and money when gigging... that's where my head is at right now anyway

Philtre

Once you got yerself a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe it's game over after that,

dindude

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I've already got four exceptional 100-watter valve amps! Now what I'm interested in is problem solving tools. I know they might not sound the best, but if they get me 98% of the way there and save me time, energy, and money when gigging... that's where my head is at right now anyway

True for me too. That’s why I love my UA OX, it allows me as a home player to justify buying an expensive valve amp as it makes that very usable in a certain situation - a perfect blend of tech solving a problem with very little compromise.

As an aside, I’ve just picked up a Yamaha THRII as I don’t have access to my amp and OX for a month, and whilst it’s fine / fun in its own way - I’ve played twice this week whereas I usually play every evening if only for a short time. I just look at it most nights and think, “can’t be arsed” cause it just doesn’t inspire that much.

Convenience / ease of use can be a bigger overall compromise is all I’m saying.

Funkfingers

I reckon this is an age thing.

If you have never played through some of the classic valve amplifiers, it would be a struggle to assess the "accuracy" of digital models of them.

For younger customers, the preset patch names are exactly that - just a name. They may neither know nor care how well the zeros and ones replicate the sounds and dynamics of the analogue originals.

Part of the problem with the amp versus modelling debate is whether to concentrate on the individual elements within the signal chain or on the outcome. Adrian Belew, for example, is known for recording through a vast array of effect pedals, racks and esoteric devices. For touring purposes, he manages to extract the sounds he needs from a Fractal Axxe FX II and a Roland VG-99. 

dindude

Funkfingers said:

I reckon this is an age thing.

If you have never played through some of the classic valve amplifiers, it would be a struggle to assess the "accuracy" of digital models of them.

For younger customers, the preset patch names are exactly that - just a name. They may neither know nor care how well the zeros and ones replicate the sounds and dynamics of the analogue originals.

Part of the problem with the amp versus modelling debate is whether to concentrate on the individual elements within the signal chain or on the outcome. Adrian Belew, for example, is known for recording through a vast array of effect pedals, racks and esoteric devices. For touring purposes, he manages to extract the sounds he needs from a Fractal Axxe FX II and a Roland VG-99. 

Totally, and Adrian Belen is a great example. As way back as 1990 I loved the tones he was getting pretty much purely from a Roland rack effects unit pre-modelling. He wasn’t trying to get it to sound like a Deluxe Reverb and failing, but using it for bottom up creativity.

This I remember distinctly, because it’s still got a visceral edge to it through his playing.

https://youtu.be/5dtPi8O8bN8

Fuengi

I think lots of people now have become accustomed to terrible audio quality. All the speakers in new devices - phones, TVs, those awful Alexis things - are a pile of shite next to a decent stereo speaker setup, which very few people seem to have.

I wonder if this isn't starting to transfer into the home music market - a reduction of quality. 

dindude

Fuengi said:

I think lots of people now have become accustomed to terrible audio quality. All the speakers in new devices - phones, TVs, those awful Alexis things - are a pile of shite next to a decent stereo speaker setup, which very few people seem to have.

I wonder if this isn't starting to transfer into the home music market - a reduction of quality. 

Agree totally. The simple pleasure of listening to a nice hi fi, even budget separates,  or a cranked valve amp is part of the joy of music for me, always has been. 

thecolourbox

dindude said:

Fuengi said:

I think lots of people now have become accustomed to terrible audio quality. All the speakers in new devices - phones, TVs, those awful Alexis things - are a pile of shite next to a decent stereo speaker setup, which very few people seem to have.

I wonder if this isn't starting to transfer into the home music market - a reduction of quality. 

Agree totally. The simple pleasure of listening to a nice hi fi, even budget separates,  or a cranked valve amp is part of the joy of music for me, always has been. 

But see for me, a recorded cranked valve amp sounds great but in the room I can't hear it at all as it's so loud, just because noise

Danny1969

Philtre said:

Once you got yerself a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe it's game over after that,

To be honest in most pub \ club \ theater gigs that amp and a bunch of pedals is basically good enough ... certainly for me 

As an electronics engineer I can understand the swing away from traditional valve amps towards modelling and class D output stage, it's cheaper to build, more efficient in terms of watts consumed to watts driven to speaker and has an aftermarket sales avenue in firmware updates,  patch's for sale etc. 

From a user point of view though in the size of venues most of us play digital modelling is  a solution looking for a problem 

UnclePsychosis

Fuengi said:

I think lots of people now have become accustomed to terrible audio quality. All the speakers in new devices - phones, TVs, those awful Alexis things - are a pile of shite next to a decent stereo speaker setup, which very few people seem to have.

I wonder if this isn't starting to transfer into the home music market - a reduction of quality. 

This has *always* been true, its a total myth that its a modern thing. 

Ever listened to a Dansette? 

hotpickups

Hmmm I don’t know. Viewing TPS videos latest and others, still young players I feel revere the old amps and their ilk’s sound. It’ll all go back to the old valve amps we all know and love one day. I know I’m a Dinosaur in today’s terms but all I see are pedals that want to emulate a cracked valve amp. Some in particular do it very well (that I actually own) only because I can’t max out a big valve amp. I cranked m amp tonight before I went to the pub a d boy it sounded awesome. Probably get a call from the neighbours tomorrow lol 

ICBM

I’ve been forecasting the death of valve amps since the early 90s when there was the Great EL34 Crisis and it looked as if valves might go out of production... I’ve got to be right eventually!

It does genuinely baffle me why there is still a market for mass-produced valve amps in 2020 - even if you don’t want modelling, analogue solid-state should have taken over completely by now.

In twenty years we’ll be able to sit on the sofa with a guitar, tell the house what type of imaginary vintage amp we want to use, it will connect wirelessly, and a perfect reproduction of the sound will come out of the hidden wall speakers...

WiresDreamDisasters

Valve amps just sound the best. And everyone knows it.

roberty

It's way more expensive to experiment with real gear. I always said it's better to have an okay right sound than a perfect wrong one

John_A

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Valve amps just sound the best. And everyone knows it.

Very probably true in the right situation.  Not however in a bedroom studio, or at the Dog n Duck.  Since 'going Helix' I'm probably only 99% as happy with the on stage feel of my sound, but the overall out front sound has improved vastly, and my home recordings are loads better too.

p90fool

Philtre said:

Once you got yerself a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe it's game over after that,

I know you're probably joking, but one of these plus a drive pedal or two is all I need these days.

I dabble with modelling in a live context every few years, spend a dozen or so gigs fighting weird dynamics, unpredictable volume issues, unnatural responses to playing subtleties or just shit monitoring, and to go back and plug into a simple amp and just play some music is a blessed relief. 

I've had some fantastic vintage amps over the last 40 years, but an HRD IV with the pine cab, a speaker of my choosing and a pedal or two is just fine.    

phil_b

Funkfingers said:

I reckon this is an age thing.

If you have never played through some of the classic valve amplifiers, it would be a struggle to assess the "accuracy" of digital models of them.

For younger customers, the preset patch names are exactly that - just a name. They may neither know nor care how well the zeros and ones replicate the sounds and dynamics of the analogue originals.

Part of the problem with the amp versus modelling debate is whether to concentrate on the individual elements within the signal chain or on the outcome. Adrian Belew, for example, is known for recording through a vast array of effect pedals, racks and esoteric devices. For touring purposes, he manages to extract the sounds he needs from a Fractal Axxe FX II and a Roland VG-99. 

surely the outcome is all that counts. and if s modeler does not replicate a certain type of amp exactly it does not really matter if you like the sound it does produce

impmann

Actually it may have more to do with last NAMM saw most of the big amp manufactures launching major new ranges - unlike Henry era Gibson, most manufacturers don’t launch new amps yearly. They are still making and selling valve amps but this year does seem to be more about other products.

But here is the reality - the market is not buying big amps in the same way it used to. Nor are retailers asking for them. Whilst there are those on here who will spout about 100w valve amps, the vast majority of players don’t need or want such amps, because they can’t be used the way they used to be. There’s a reason why Fender sells truckloads of 40w valve amps - because they work in the modern gigging environment. Small amps are “in”. Believe me, I’m looking at genuine sales figures to base that statement - with that trend startlingly apparent across *all* brands.

Whilst the old farts will raise a fist towards modelling saying it’s not quite the same as their beloved Thermionic amp - and perhaps they are right - the rest of the guitar world has moved on. Younger players I speak to aspire to the iconography of rock n roll - big loud valve amps - they recognise that it’s impractical, heavy and expensive. Most pedal boards I work with have some degree of digital tech on them - and most players have something small and convenient at home to play through. And there’s your market.

NAMM is a reflection of the market - and remember that this forum is *not* a typical slice though that as most of us are older players or traditionalists. There’s a world out there that don’t get involved here that also play guitar.

Stevepage

Things will go the way the Home Stereo System did. 

From big valve powered stereo systems with huge speakers, to more compact stereos with no valves and then eventually we end up listening to music through our phones with Spotify using blue tooth ear buds (no me but the trend as it stands).

The guitar market is very very slow to move/innovate. It's even slow compared to the bass guitar market. 

Things like Helix, Kemper etc are just the start of things moving forward. Though some of us geeks will still have the stupidly loud valve amp lurking in the background.