RIP: Amps

menamestom

lukedlb said:

Would a Revival Drive solid state amp be acceptable to the valve amp army (card carrying member)?

I don’t think it’s solid state per se, it’s that solid state often means cheap.  The Roland JC reissues proved people will spend more on better quality solid state amps and to that end a reassuringly expensive, high quality solid state amp would probably be if interest to people.  But not many people seem to do them.

Teacherphil

Hiwatt seem to have gone full Spinal Tap.
https://www.facebook.com/118190701590797/posts/2712902755452899/

ICBM

Teacherphil said:

Hiwatt seem to have gone full Spinal Tap.
https://www.facebook.com/118190701590797/posts/2712902755452899/

Interesting that it has eight KT88s - the originals used six. More confirmation that the JJ ones can't take the power like the old GECs could. It would actually be interesting to know if this is even as powerful - both of the originals I've worked on produced almost 450W at the point of clipping and over 750W fully overdriven.

Great fun for bass, outdoors at a big festival or somewhere similar... probably fairly pointless for anything else. I actually thought the 200 sounded slightly better too.

rockmonster

For years I’ve gigged valve heads mostly 100’s but always 50watts+. Always a 4x12 or 2 2x12’s. I just dig them and they give me the spread and oomph I think I need playing in my rock covers band. One guitar, one bass, drums and a vocalist. Bass drum miked up occasionally but vocals only through the PA. it works for us and we’ve never had complaints about it being too loud. If I used a puny little amp it wouldn’t be rock n roll! Lol! BUT and this is a big BUT I’ve just snagged an used unpowered Kemper rack (last week) an used remote is on the way next week. I like it! Granted I have it running through a Marshall 9100 valve power amp through 2 CAA 2x12’s but it sounds great! I’m always open to new gear, tried some of the modelling years ago- it was shit but it’s a lot better nowadays. Whether I gig it or not depends on how much time it takes to dial it in and learn how to tweak it quickly on the fly. BUT never say never! It will have to give me the spread and oomph of a 100 watt head but if it does I’ll be happy to take it to the Dog and Duck! Watch this space...........

Roland

ICBM said:

I’ve been forecasting the death of valve amps since the early 90s when there was the Great EL34 Crisis and it looked as if valves might go out of production... I’ve got to be right eventually!

I’ve been forecasting that since the 70s, and was pleased when I could eventually get the sound I needed without a valve amp. That was in about 2009. Yes, there are things a valve amp can do that it’s replacement finds difficult. The same is true of most replaced technologies. 

Like most debates, this one shows the different criteria which we all have in making our choices. My own are:
1. Reliability. In 50 years’ playing I’ve had too many valve failures and mechanical breakdowns.
2. Flexibility. In a covers band I want a range of sounds without carrying multiple amps and speakers. I also want to be able to use the same equipment at a wedding, in a pub, and when accompanying a solo singer.
3. Space in the house, in the car, and at venues. There are sounds which only a 4x12 will provide. I know a bass player who took his 4x12 to the dealership when he bought a car. With PA and lights to carry I don’t have room for that.
4. Ease of use. Once everything is configured it’s very simple to use. Plug in the mains, the xlr, and the guitar jack. There’s no fiddling with positions. I don’t have to wait for valves to cool down before packing away. I can carry it without straining my back.

If I were doing small gigs with a blues band the story might be different.

lukedlb

What about a SSamp combo with an exceptional cabinet and livery with a top construction for resonance and projection with a fantastic speaker choice, literally oozing quality and cost? 

Modulus_Amps

ICBM said:

I’ve been forecasting the death of valve amps since the early 90s when there was the Great EL34 Crisis and it looked as if valves might go out of production... I’ve got to be right eventually!

Considering you can now buy LP's again... I think you are wrong. ....or at least for another 30 years Do valve amps sound better, generally yes, but way more important than that... did Hendrix play a valve amp or a digital amp, what about Slash, Clapton, Page, Beck, Hammet, Hetfield, Bonamassa.... etc etc

John_A

Modulus_Amps said:

ICBM said:

I’ve been forecasting the death of valve amps since the early 90s when there was the Great EL34 Crisis and it looked as if valves might go out of production... I’ve got to be right eventually!

Considering you can now buy LP's again... I think you are wrong. ....or at least for another 30 years Do valve amps sound better, generally yes, but way more important than that... did Hendrix play a valve amp or a digital amp, what about Slash, Clapton, Page, Beck, Hammet, Hetfield, Bonamassa.... etc etc

I'm sure he'll be right 'eventually'  when that will be I would imagine another few generations yet.

As I've said 'do valve amps sound better' is a funny one.  To me, there is still a very small increase in satisfaction using a valve amp live or at home Vs a modeler, but the overall sound of the band at pub gigs is definitely better using a modeller direct.  We get a much more balanced sound, both out front and on stage.  Every one in the audience gets a balanced mix and we get whatever mix we want.

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

Considering you can now buy LP's again... I think you are wrong. ....or at least for another 30 years Do valve amps sound better, generally yes, but way more important than that... did Hendrix play a valve amp or a digital amp, what about Slash, Clapton, Page, Beck, Hammet, Hetfield, Bonamassa.... etc etc

Despite how much it’s being talked about - and the huge amount of space devoted to it in HMV! - the vinyl revival is tiny... still far outsold by CD, even in physical media. I can see the record industry losing interest again quite soon, there’s just not that much money in it.

I don’t doubt valve amps will still be used and probably made by small builders even in thirty years - but I’m not at all sure about the mass-production market for them. The big question is whether valves will continue to be made, if amps aren’t - or the other way round. Or will it become like germanium transistors, where builders are chasing diminishing stocks of NOS components and having to find ways of using out-of-spec ones or near equivalents...

The 90s was too soon to write off the technology, but without the ex-communist countries retaining valve manufacturing for a few critical years longer than the West it would have happened then - but for a while it looked like we might be down to only about three types of valves being made, and even a company the size of Marshall had to make a major change to stay in production. It could happen again - there are only three full-scale valve factories in the world now, and the market for them is tiny in global terms.

The difference now from the 90s is that the alternatives have other major advantages for convenience and flexibility than a 90s solid-state amp did compared to a valve amp.

Remember that even a company with the dominance of Kodak was caught out by how sudden the demise of mass-market film photography was, once digital reached the tipping point where the consumer market switched to it. Or what happened to the market for CRT TV and monitor tubes when flat screens became cheaper...

AndyJP

A thought I had is using an amp head with a suhr reactive load ir for a gig. Lightweight rig, consistent foh sound. Less buttons to tweak.

guitargeek62

dindude said:

Well this is a nifty meeting of new vs old tech. at NAMM. Bad Cat Paw - valve pre feeding class D stereo amp with digital reverb and IR’s, 2 x 6” speakers built in but ability to feed proper cabs, and doesn’t sound half bad in this quick demo, certainly better than any of the modelling demos I’ve heard at NAMM. Andertons will be stocking them too. $799 so about the same in £ likely. 

https://youtu.be/H-jDB2DIy5o

Wow! That's an unexpected surprise, very cool indeed 

ICBM

guitargeek62 said:

dindude said:

Well this is a nifty meeting of new vs old tech. at NAMM. Bad Cat Paw - valve pre feeding class D stereo amp with digital reverb and IR’s, 2 x 6” speakers built in but ability to feed proper cabs, and doesn’t sound half bad in this quick demo, certainly better than any of the modelling demos I’ve heard at NAMM.

Wow! That's an unexpected surprise, very cool indeed 

It's a small step from there to all-solid-state, since the preamp is actually the easier part to get right with solid state.

John_A

My wife bought me a turntable for Christmas a few years ago, the most annoying thing about vinyl is getting up to turn it over after 20 minutes!   Like the digital version of everything, convenience outweighs any minor quality benefit 

Danny1969

Yeah it's actually the transformer in the output stage that contributes a huge part of the valve amp experience. It's very difficult to design and make a linear transformer ...they basically introduce a lot of the goodness we like. Unfortunelty that's also the expensive part of building a valve amp... not so much the valves themselves 

Personally I don't see class D as being as reliable as valve tech. It's clever, it's efficient but  it's not as reliable as a linear supply. The caps will always fail which inevitably leans to the destruction of the switching transistor, sometimes the pulse width chip and normally a load of other stuff. 
In my band Superheroes we have already had to repair both HK bins due to SMPS capacitor  failure .... now they actually did 10 years in service before failing but 10 years is nothing for a linear supply. 20 years is nothing for a linear supply.

So don't get sold on class D being more reliable than valve, it's not really and believe me it's a world of pain and hassle to repair 

crunchman

ICBM said:

Modulus_Amps said:

Considering you can now buy LP's again... I think you are wrong. ....or at least for another 30 years Do valve amps sound better, generally yes, but way more important than that... did Hendrix play a valve amp or a digital amp, what about Slash, Clapton, Page, Beck, Hammet, Hetfield, Bonamassa.... etc etc

Despite how much it’s being talked about - and the huge amount of space devoted to it in HMV! - the vinyl revival is tiny... still far outsold by CD, even in physical media. I can see the record industry losing interest again quite soon, there’s just not that much money in it.

I don’t doubt valve amps will still be used and probably made by small builders even in thirty years - but I’m not at all sure about the mass-production market for them. The big question is whether valves will continue to be made, if amps aren’t - or the other way round. Or will it become like germanium transistors, where builders are chasing diminishing stocks of NOS components and having to find ways of using out-of-spec ones or near equivalents...

The 90s was too soon to write off the technology, but without the ex-communist countries retaining valve manufacturing for a few critical years longer than the West it would have happened then - but for a while it looked like we might be down to only about three types of valves being made, and even a company the size of Marshall had to make a major change to stay in production. It could happen again - there are only three full-scale valve factories in the world now, and the market for them is tiny in global terms.

The difference now from the 90s is that the alternatives have other major advantages for convenience and flexibility than a 90s solid-state amp did compared to a valve amp.

Remember that even a company with the dominance of Kodak was caught out by how sudden the demise of mass-market film photography was, once digital reached the tipping point where the consumer market switched to it. Or what happened to the market for CRT TV and monitor tubes when flat screens became cheaper...

Talking of the demise of CRT TV, it might have a knock on effect on valve production.  CRTs are very similar technology to valves.  With CRTs no longer being made, the suppliers that make the raw materials common to both valves and CRTs might stop production.  If that happens, it could kill off valves even if the valve factories themselves had enough demand to keep going.

I'm seriously thinking about selling a valve amp, and getting a Strymon Iridium or the new Two Notes Torpedo Captor x to use with a small head.  Either way, I'd end up going direct live.

I'd keep my Lazy J for now, but I don't actually use it very much any more.  I use my Kemper at home almost all of the time.  Currently I have a second valve amp that I leave at the church I play at regularly, but I think I'd be better off ditching that to go direct.

From what I've seen, if there is a half decent PA, the front of house sound is significantly better going direct - either digital or via some kind of device like the Torpedo.

p90fool

Danny1969 said:

So don't get sold on class D being more reliable than valve, it's not really and believe me it's a world of pain and hassle to repair 

Every serious amplifier failure I've had in the last few years has been class D, at least five powered PA cabs in six years in a small pub band which only uses two at a time. 

It seems to me that the manufacturers of anything with a class D amp section just hope you'll want to upgrade to the next big thing before your current gear dies out of warranty. 

If I had space to carry them I'd just go back to a Marshall valve PA head and a pair of 4x12 columns, they'd probably outlive me.

ICBM

p90fool said:

If I had space to carry them I'd just go back to a Marshall valve PA head and a pair of 4x12 columns, they'd probably outlive me.

Slight diversion... but you can also make these useful in a modern context, if you have the space for them. I've done a couple of sets for tribute bands who want the classic 60s-70s look - take out the (quite valuable) old Celestions, fit them with high-powered modern drivers - a sub, a normal bass speaker, a spacer ring with a midrange speaker and a blank plate with a horn tweeter - and suitable crossovers, fill them with acoustic wadding and they will handle several hundred watts and sound pretty decent with a modern PA amp - not hi-fi, but properly full-range and perfectly good enough for a pub gig. They also don't need stands, which is useful. They're still a pig to carry though, it has to be said.

impmann

Modulus_Amps said:

, but way more important than that... did Hendrix play a valve amp or a digital amp, what about Slash, Clapton, Page, Beck, Hammet, Hetfield, Bonamassa.... etc etc

Why are those people important? One is dead. Two haven't done anything of any note since the 1970s. Three haven't done anything of note since the late 80s. One could make a fart sound interesting -  and has made great noises with SS equipment. And one is JoBo, who will play anything he's paid to play through (and sound exactly the same).

Genuinely, why are these people still relevant? They may inspire a particular generation of players but younger players won't care. I'm old enough to have seen most of these guys play in their prime, but I'd genuinely not class them as a major influence any more. 

The thing you are missing is, if Hendrix was alive today (and a young man) he would be embracing digital tech. He was always trying to push the barriers and find the limit of the technology. 

If you want to live in the past, fine - but don't assume all guitar players look behind them for their inspiration.

clarkefan

Why are they relevant? Why is Beethoven relevant?

Why do people always say Hendrix would go blah blah blah, how do they know? Maybe he'd be addicted to the sound of valves like the rest of us?

Winny_Pooh

impmann said:

Modulus_Amps said:

, but way more important than that... did Hendrix play a valve amp or a digital amp, what about Slash, Clapton, Page, Beck, Hammet, Hetfield, Bonamassa.... etc etc

Why are those people important? One is dead. Two haven't done anything of any note since the 1970s. Three haven't done anything of note since the late 80s. One could make a fart sound interesting -  and has made great noises with SS equipment. And one is JoBo, who will play anything he's paid to play through (and sound exactly the same).

Genuinely, why are these people still relevant? They may inspire a particular generation of players but younger players won't care. I'm old enough to have seen most of these guys play in their prime, but I'd genuinely not class them as a major influence any more. 

The thing you are missing is, if Hendrix was alive today (and a young man) he would be embracing digital tech. He was always trying to push the barriers and find the limit of the technology. 

If you want to live in the past, fine - but don't assume all guitar players look behind them for their inspiration.

Not totally disagreeing with you, however the best "young" players are generally using valve amps too.
Maybe in another ten years things will shift over for live guitar playing. For recording I'd say that modelling is already there.