RIP: Amps

Limehouse_Blues

Don’t know if anyone’s already mentioned but I like the look of Laney’s updated Cub amps that have debuted at NAMM. If you want a small valve combo for home use with built in dirt and fx loop they look like a great option.

PolarityMan

GrahamG said:

I think it may be oversimplifying the discussion to say Valves/Analogue is better/worse than Digital/S/S.
I regulary go to watch a young band who use all Digital tech(modelling),they have 4 Vocals Lead & Rhythm Guitars & the Rhythm also doubles on Keys,they use a Roland V-Drum kit,so no backline(not even monitoring) all going through quite a decent PA system with a "modern" Digital Desk.
I get to watch them on 3 different venues & the sound is incredibly consistent & almost always better than us old tech old guys/bands playing the Same gigs( Pub/Club gigs).

As a for instance i watched them 2 weeks ago at a regular Venue & this week at the same gig i watched a "typical" old arse Band(like ours) with the usual array of valve guitar amps accoustic drums,all good quality gear & equally good if not better players,but the overall sound is not in the same league,IMHO.
I should just add that i'm an old arse Guitar player who uses Valve gear,but their approach to gigging/sound has really got me thinking about dragging myself & my band mates into the Digital Tech era,although i have no clue where to start.
As an aside in one of the posts someone mentioned Russ Andrews Hi Fi,it brought back a few good memories(& one bad one)of my trips up in Scotland as a hi-fi rep.
Please excuse the ramblings of an old man.

Ive never heard e-drums sound good as a replacement for acoustic drums in a live rock context..are they doing something where the drum sounds are overtly electronic as opposed to attempting to be a facsimile of a real kit? 

crunchman

PolarityMan said:

GrahamG said:

I think it may be oversimplifying the discussion to say Valves/Analogue is better/worse than Digital/S/S.
I regulary go to watch a young band who use all Digital tech(modelling),they have 4 Vocals Lead & Rhythm Guitars & the Rhythm also doubles on Keys,they use a Roland V-Drum kit,so no backline(not even monitoring) all going through quite a decent PA system with a "modern" Digital Desk.
I get to watch them on 3 different venues & the sound is incredibly consistent & almost always better than us old tech old guys/bands playing the Same gigs( Pub/Club gigs).

As a for instance i watched them 2 weeks ago at a regular Venue & this week at the same gig i watched a "typical" old arse Band(like ours) with the usual array of valve guitar amps accoustic drums,all good quality gear & equally good if not better players,but the overall sound is not in the same league,IMHO.
I should just add that i'm an old arse Guitar player who uses Valve gear,but their approach to gigging/sound has really got me thinking about dragging myself & my band mates into the Digital Tech era,although i have no clue where to start.
As an aside in one of the posts someone mentioned Russ Andrews Hi Fi,it brought back a few good memories(& one bad one)of my trips up in Scotland as a hi-fi rep.
Please excuse the ramblings of an old man.

Ive never heard e-drums sound good as a replacement for acoustic drums in a live rock context..are they doing something where the drum sounds are overtly electronic as opposed to attempting to be a facsimile of a real kit? 

I've heard e-drums sound much better than a mic'd acoustic drum kit.  It wasn't even close.

A lot of gigs won't call for the drums to be mic'd but where they are mic'd, to do it well is not easy.

Dominic

AndyJP said:

Cheers @ICBM !

Totally agree with the compression point. The valve amps eats it for breakfast. I couldn't dial that out of the Kemper.  I tried all the headroom tweaks with it. Had the output set to -18db, took all the compression.out of the input stage. Granted that profile is a MBritt dumble so guess compression is part of the sound.

Still learning on the mic amp recording bit. But I literally just slapped the mic slightly off centre and at 45 degrees.  So no time spent on tone tweaking. I'd had the amp one day at the the time I recorded. That Kemper tone had taken me 18 months to get to that stage.

It is very compressed but I have to say that when I was Kempering I didn't warm to any of the Britt Profiles and they all have far too much harsh reverb on them.Reverb is a tell -tale digital weakness ;it always adds a plinky metallic sound at the end of the note .

soma1975

Jonathanthomas83 said:

It's very weird that people take that stance with Hendrix. One of the best guitarists to walk this earth "wouldn't be using a valve amp in 2020", righto.

Agreed. I'm sure he'd try everything but he was a bloke that would put up with receiving radio transmissions from local aircraft in order to use a wah live. He'd put up with valves in an age of digital if it sounded better. Especially considering he'd never have to service it himself. 

WiresDreamDisasters

Most of you.

Danny1969

I couldn't give a toss about what Hendrix would use, the guy who really turned guitar on it's head 6 years after Hendrix died  is still here using valves

Re E-drums ...... I've never heard a convincing E drum snare in my life .... single shot fine but any kind of snare fill instantly gives the game away ... same with the toms although not as bad 

dindude

Listen to Hendrix’s tone on the non slight return version of Voodoo Chile, then listen to someone doing they’re best demo’ing a weedy Plexi model on the Pod GO to see how much progress we’ve really made. 

Greatape

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Most of you.

You may jest, but a similar set up saved the day for me at a wedding gig in the summer, when the hippies couldn't provide enough juice to run my valve amp. (It was actually a Spider 15.... )

crispy

AndyJP said:

Wasn't Hendrix more interested in getting plaster casts of his knob towards the end?

I wonder what the current year equivalent would be? Perhaps a range of signature guitars, or a Youtube channel with over 700k subs?

Meanwhile back to the topic ... I think the vast majority of beginner amps in the 70s/80s/90s were always terrible, an impediment not an assistant. and good 50/100w amps were always total overkill for learning the instrument at home, probably also a roadblock to progress for many aspiring players. Anything unfit for purpose deserves to die. If digital products continue to improve that situation then good.

For big money I think expensive real amps are already a niche product and that situation won't change while boomers and wealthy Gen X still breathes, it might even flourish for a while, until in a few decades the electric guitar becomes an antiquated minority instrument like bagpipes or banjo. Amps will track the fate of the instrument imo.

GrahamG

PolarityMan said:

GrahamG said:

I think it may be oversimplifying the discussion to say Valves/Analogue is better/worse than Digital/S/S.
I regulary go to watch a young band who use all Digital tech(modelling),they have 4 Vocals Lead & Rhythm Guitars & the Rhythm also doubles on Keys,they use a Roland V-Drum kit,so no backline(not even monitoring) all going through quite a decent PA system with a "modern" Digital Desk.
I get to watch them on 3 different venues & the sound is incredibly consistent & almost always better than us old tech old guys/bands playing the Same gigs( Pub/Club gigs).

As a for instance i watched them 2 weeks ago at a regular Venue & this week at the same gig i watched a "typical" old arse Band(like ours) with the usual array of valve guitar amps accoustic drums,all good quality gear & equally good if not better players,but the overall sound is not in the same league,IMHO.
I should just add that i'm an old arse Guitar player who uses Valve gear,but their approach to gigging/sound has really got me thinking about dragging myself & my band mates into the Digital Tech era,although i have no clue where to start.
As an aside in one of the posts someone mentioned Russ Andrews Hi Fi,it brought back a few good memories(& one bad one)of my trips up in Scotland as a hi-fi rep.
Please excuse the ramblings of an old man.

Ive never heard e-drums sound good as a replacement for acoustic drums in a live rock context..are they doing something where the drum sounds are overtly electronic as opposed to attempting to be a facsimile of a real kit? 

No,the kit sounds pretty much like a mic'd acoustic kit,i agree with what you're saying there's nothing better than I mic'd up "real" kit in a good PA, but at the level I play at (pubs) most gigs don't warrant drum mic's,so the v-drums are starting from a different point, also this band have just starting using the latest v's, this was the 1st time I've heard them with the new drums,quite a big step up from the previous set, i do think that v-drums are getting to the point where they are very useable in the sort of situations where an acoustic kit is "too loud" 
But I was really talking about the total sound & performance of the Digital gear,these Modellers & electric kits can have an advantage over our "old" valve & analogue gear in terms of sounding "full" at much lower levels than is possible with our old tech..
The main Guitar player gets some really convincing sounds out of his modeller set up,if I could get to grips with one i'd definitely prefer carting that around & setting up compared to my valve amp, especially at my age.

EricTheWeary

Danny1969 said:

I couldn't give a toss about what Hendrix would use, the guy who really turned guitar on it's head 6 years after Hendrix died  is still here using valves

Ahh, Pete Budd from The Wurzels. 

Danny1969

EricTheWeary said:

Danny1969 said:

I couldn't give a toss about what Hendrix would use, the guy who really turned guitar on it's head 6 years after Hendrix died  is still here using valves

Ahh, Pete Budd from The Wurzels. 

Yeah, that's the badger !

WiresDreamDisasters

Danny1969 said:

EricTheWeary said:

Danny1969 said:

I couldn't give a toss about what Hendrix would use, the guy who really turned guitar on it's head 6 years after Hendrix died  is still here using valves

Ahh, Pete Budd from The Wurzels. 

Yeah, that's the badger !

I think you mean wurzel.

PolarityMan

GrahamG said:

PolarityMan said:

GrahamG said:

I think it may be oversimplifying the discussion to say Valves/Analogue is better/worse than Digital/S/S.
I regulary go to watch a young band who use all Digital tech(modelling),they have 4 Vocals Lead & Rhythm Guitars & the Rhythm also doubles on Keys,they use a Roland V-Drum kit,so no backline(not even monitoring) all going through quite a decent PA system with a "modern" Digital Desk.
I get to watch them on 3 different venues & the sound is incredibly consistent & almost always better than us old tech old guys/bands playing the Same gigs( Pub/Club gigs).

As a for instance i watched them 2 weeks ago at a regular Venue & this week at the same gig i watched a "typical" old arse Band(like ours) with the usual array of valve guitar amps accoustic drums,all good quality gear & equally good if not better players,but the overall sound is not in the same league,IMHO.
I should just add that i'm an old arse Guitar player who uses Valve gear,but their approach to gigging/sound has really got me thinking about dragging myself & my band mates into the Digital Tech era,although i have no clue where to start.
As an aside in one of the posts someone mentioned Russ Andrews Hi Fi,it brought back a few good memories(& one bad one)of my trips up in Scotland as a hi-fi rep.
Please excuse the ramblings of an old man.

Ive never heard e-drums sound good as a replacement for acoustic drums in a live rock context..are they doing something where the drum sounds are overtly electronic as opposed to attempting to be a facsimile of a real kit? 

No,the kit sounds pretty much like a mic'd acoustic kit,i agree with what you're saying there's nothing better than I mic'd up "real" kit in a good PA, but at the level I play at (pubs) most gigs don't warrant drum mic's,so the v-drums are starting from a different point, also this band have just starting using the latest v's, this was the 1st time I've heard them with the new drums,quite a big step up from the previous set, i do think that v-drums are getting to the point where they are very useable in the sort of situations where an acoustic kit is "too loud" 
But I was really talking about the total sound & performance of the Digital gear,these Modellers & electric kits can have an advantage over our "old" valve & analogue gear in terms of sounding "full" at much lower levels than is possible with our old tech..
The main Guitar player gets some really convincing sounds out of his modeller set up,if I could get to grips with one i'd definitely prefer carting that around & setting up compared to my valve amp, especially at my age.

Its not really about the sound of a mic'ed up versus non mic'ed up it more about the fact that they dont reflect the performance the same way acoustic drums do. As Danny says snare rolls and articulations give it away easily but the same is true with cymbals too. I actually have some of these on my electric kit which goes a fair way to improving the situation:

https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/cymbal-set/zildjian-gen16-ae-480-cymbal-box-set-buffed-bronze?gclid=CjwKCAiAgqDxBRBTEiwA59eEN2sbjnhK8xrODDSzRE6a5SHUT-MTSv7vUKe2PlvzySwEfMV9ltPCTRoCV2EQAvD_BwE

In fact the only drum I think it improve is the bass drum where you typically want the additional consistency that ekits give you, on a mic'ed kit the bass drum would usually be compressed and EQ'ed to achieve this. 

Where it does work of course is in styles where the drums arent supposed to sound like an acoustic kit where the lack of "human-ness" is actually an advantage. 

p90fool

Danny1969 said:

I couldn't give a toss about what Hendrix would use, the guy who really turned guitar on it's head 6 years after Hendrix died  is still here using valves

Re E-drums ...... I've never heard a convincing E drum snare in my life .... single shot fine but any kind of snare fill instantly gives the game away ... same with the toms although not as bad 

My wife is a drummer and will grudgingly live with an e-drum snare if she really has to, but she regards the hi-hat as the really expressive musical instrument in a barrage of "hitty things" so absolutely refuses to use an electronic one at any price or from any brand.

I don't think we're close enough with amp modelling yet, but even a £7k e-drum kit is really shit as a dynamic musical instrument in a traditional sense. 

I know lots of people claim silent stages with modellers and e-drums sound great, but to me the very best they can possibly sound is like a professionally recorded example of music I fucking hate.  

thecolourbox

p90fool said:

Danny1969 said:

I couldn't give a toss about what Hendrix would use, the guy who really turned guitar on it's head 6 years after Hendrix died  is still here using valves

Re E-drums ...... I've never heard a convincing E drum snare in my life .... single shot fine but any kind of snare fill instantly gives the game away ... same with the toms although not as bad 

My wife is a drummer and will grudgingly live with an e-drum snare if she really has to, but she regards the hi-hat as the really expressive musical instrument in a barrage of "hitty things" so absolutely refuses to use an electronic one at any price or from any brand.

I don't think we're close enough with amp modelling yet, but even a £7k e-drum kit is really shit as a dynamic musical instrument in a traditional sense. 

I know lots of people claim silent stages with modellers and e-drums sound great, but to me the very best they can possibly sound is like a professionally recorded example of music I fucking hate.  

On the other hand, some of us like that music and don't really feel the need to suffer humongous volumes just so the drummist can feel expressive banging away at stuff, because in the styles I enjoy that just isn't necessary. Horses for courses init

GrahamG

Note to self,don't mention modern tech especially Electronic Drums.

sw67

We have now moved to using electronic drums / helix for both guitars. It was the drummer that was pushing for electronic drums as he was fed up dragging his full kit ino pubs. We use a good yamaha pa with a sub and each guitar also has a powered speaker that we might not use in tiny venues. We are using in ears so no monitors req.

We have had a few compliments regarding the sound - i am wireless and do a soundcheck and it does sound good out front without being too loud for the venue.

The only downside is the band dont get the full playing live experience like it was with traditional amps and drums but i dont go home with my ears shot as i am standing next to a crash cymbal or pa speaker. Its a price worth paying at pub gigs but i do use my amps at home.

p90fool

GrahamG said:

Note to self,don't mention modern tech especially Electronic Drums.

Haha sorry, I had to do some sessions at Monnow Valley a couple of years ago on a double album of pop covers paid for by a weird egotistical "e-drummer" and it was the longest ten days of my life.

The scars will take a long time to heal.



@thecolourbox why shouldn't the drummer feel expressive? They're playing a musical instrument in a band too and it certainly doesn't have to be loud. 

We have three kits, from a cajon based kit, through a Flats kit with no shells and very light cymbals up to a full rock kit, any of which can be played with brushes, rods or sticks. 

E-kits have their place in some genres, but trying to play rootsy music on one is like playing guitar through a "guitar" patch on a guitar synth - it just kills the whole point of being a musician.