Thank You Parcelforce, for ridding the world of a PRS.

Moloch

pjf said:

Moloch said:

ICBM said:

tone1 said:

Yes is was tuned to standard...

Unfortunately this really isn’t a good idea for shipping.

You should detune almost completely, just leaving enough tension to hold any parts like bridges and tailpieces in place.

I'm really curious to know just what the thinking is here. I see this tip all the time online, yet only one guitar that I've ever bought from a shop or manufacturer has not been shipped in tune. PRS specify that any guitars shipped to their PTC should be sent in tune.

I like, and tend to follow, Jack’s guidance for packing guitars - which touches on the point you’re curious about: 
https://jacksinstrumentservices.com/how-to-pack-a-guitar.html

I'm sure he's a good tech, but I don't think I'd take his advice over PRS or, indeed, basically all the major manufacturers that I've encountered thus far. There's also a question mark over the logic that he's using. Guitar necks are an exercise in balanced tension, with strings pulling one way, countered by a truss rod pulling in the opposite direction. Slackening simply means that the latter is dominant and a potential break is more likely in that direction than the other.

It also means that in transit the neck is going to be spending a significant time under unbalanced tension. That coupled with temperature changes from, for example, cold warehouses to hot vans awaiting delivery could in turn present a risk of warping (primarily on long shipping distances).

My personal impression is that it's really a comfort step that people take because they think it makes the guitar safer. Strings pulling in the direction of impact could well make a break worse (mainly at headstock), but we're talking percentages. Something that will break a guitar neck will do so irrespective of string and/or rod tension. At that stage it becomes a matter of the extent of the damage, but you're invariably going to be paying for a repair.

I've never heard of people keeping their guitars in a detuned state when not being played at home, even though there are at least as many (and likely vastly more) catastrophic accidents there than in transit.

On the occasions that I've posted a guitar, I've left it up to the buyer. If they really want it detuned then I will, but I myself stick to keeping the neck balanced. I definitely adhere to Jack's advice on covering frets though. I've seen a lot more dented frets than disastrous neck breaks in my time. That though may also be my own little 'comfort step'.

hendrix2430

I'm so sorry for you OP!

As mentioned before, the box probably fell flat on a hard surface from a couple meters - one single impact. I can't think of any other event that would have caused a break like that.

With that said, it looks repairable. You'll end up with a joint that is just as strong. However, if it were me, I would have the back and neck repainted (black gloss?) to hide the break. 

ICBM

It’s absolutely not a ‘comfort step’ and it makes a real difference to the chance of it breaking if the case is dropped heavily, which is something which is likely during shipping and very rare otherwise.

The reason is very simple - the strings put the neck under a lot of stress, typically a force of about 100lb tension. If it flexes forwards heavily, the tension will pull it further, beyond the point where it then breaks, which would not have happened otherwise.

If the package hasn’t been opened, that is in fact exactly what has happened here.

It’s also the common cause of broken Gibson headstocks when the case falls onto its front.

It’s simple physics, and I don’t know why PRS recommend otherwise - many manufacturers do in fact ship them detuned, which is how most guitars arrive at shops - not fully slack, but nowhere near at full tension. Experienced repairers like Dan Erlewine also recommend detuning.

The truss rod does not create the same sort of force in the opposite direction at all, and the tension of it will not break a neck - and certainly not a headstock which the truss rod has no effect on. It’s perfectly safe to take all the string tension off and leave the truss rod tight, at least for several days - I wouldn’t leave it like that if it was going to be stored for a long time, but that’s not what happening in shipping.

sgosden

skunkwerx said:

@TTBZ It was fixable I suppose with a respray and filler but I bought it cheap from a bloke who had done a horrific relic job to most of it, with one intention, stripping it of its pristine parts to use as spares for my usual one and its twin I donated to the sister. shame though. 

Its flexy but it holds my 220lbs... 

In hindsight.. just irresponsible and not even scientific. 

Was It tuned to pitch at this point?

Neil

I actually thought it was common knowledge to detune a guitar before shipping?

Surely a neck under less stress will be less prone to snapping?

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

It’s absolutely not a ‘comfort step’ and it makes a real difference to the chance of it breaking if the case is dropped heavily, which is something which is likely during shipping and very rare otherwise.

The reason is very simple - the strings put the neck under a lot of stress, typically a force of about 100lb tension. If it flexes forwards heavily, the tension will pull it further, beyond the point where it then breaks, which would not have happened otherwise.

If the package hasn’t been opened, that is in fact exactly what has happened here.

It’s also the common cause of broken Gibson headstocks when the case falls onto its front.

It’s simple physics, and I don’t know why PRS recommend otherwise - many manufacturers do in fact ship them detuned, which is how most guitars arrive at shops - not fully slack, but nowhere near at full tension. Experienced repairers like Dan Erlewine also recommend detuning.

The truss rod does not create the same sort of force in the opposite direction at all, and the tension of it will not break a neck - and certainly not a headstock which the truss rod has no effect on. It’s perfectly safe to take all the string tension off and leave the truss rod tight, at least for several days - I wouldn’t leave it like that if it was going to be stored for a long time, but that’s not what happening in shipping.

I’m not sure how simple the physics are but it’s certainly an interesting topic and points of view. Presumably a guitar neck is most balanced and movement is least (Newton’s 3rd law) when tuned up. I’d have thought the strings slacken momentarily when the neck flexes forward (shortens) on impact, rather than pull it further. So perhaps it’s the “whiplash” straightening/extension of the neck against the tuned strings that causes the problem.

Difficult scientific study without trashing lots of guitars, although it brings to mind that video of Gibson’s being crushed by a tractor a couple of years ago...this would have been a more useful way of destroying them!

ICBM

TINMAN82 said:

I’d have thought the strings slacken momentarily when the neck flexes forward (shortens) on impact, rather than pull it further.

To stop it being pulled further than the movement due to the inertia alone, the strings would have to go down to fully slack, or there is still a force pulling the neck forwards. See how far you have to bend the neck to achieve that . Don’t try this with your best guitar .

TeleMaster

If you've gone to the post office and told them what it is, got insurance, and they've never stated it won't be insured, that's missold for definite. 

Could be hard to prove though. 

boogieman

ICBM said:

tone1 said:

I took it to the post office where they asked me what the box contained. I told them it was a guitar and they proceeded to take my extra money for insurance...I have just checked parcelforce website where it states that musical instruments aren’t covered.... If this is correct then why would they take my money knowing full well it wouldn’t be covered?

Because they do. In my opinion this is certainly mis-selling, and probably (at least morally) fraud.

You aren't the first to be caught by this, unfortunately.

I must’ve posted about this at least 10 times over the years but it seems it bears repeating. 

NEVER USE PARCELFORCE FOR SENDING GUITARS. *

*Unless it’s cheap. 

They only insure for up to a max £200 for musical instruments, even then they specify guitars must be in a hardcase. It’s all in their t&c’s. Yes, they’ll sell you extra insurance but it’s a pointless expense and they should be ashamed of themselves for even offering it. 

Sorry to see the result, hope it gets fixed ok. 

WezV

TeleMaster said:

If you've gone to the post office and told them what it is, got insurance, and they've never stated it won't be insured, that's missold for definite. 

Could be hard to prove though. 

I have gone in before and told them I am sending a guitar.  They asked value and tried to sell me insurance.  I pointed out their policy didn't cover instruments.  She told me she was sure it did and I should really pay for it.

crunchman

TINMAN82 said:

ICBM said:

It’s absolutely not a ‘comfort step’ and it makes a real difference to the chance of it breaking if the case is dropped heavily, which is something which is likely during shipping and very rare otherwise.

The reason is very simple - the strings put the neck under a lot of stress, typically a force of about 100lb tension. If it flexes forwards heavily, the tension will pull it further, beyond the point where it then breaks, which would not have happened otherwise.

If the package hasn’t been opened, that is in fact exactly what has happened here.

It’s also the common cause of broken Gibson headstocks when the case falls onto its front.

It’s simple physics, and I don’t know why PRS recommend otherwise - many manufacturers do in fact ship them detuned, which is how most guitars arrive at shops - not fully slack, but nowhere near at full tension. Experienced repairers like Dan Erlewine also recommend detuning.

The truss rod does not create the same sort of force in the opposite direction at all, and the tension of it will not break a neck - and certainly not a headstock which the truss rod has no effect on. It’s perfectly safe to take all the string tension off and leave the truss rod tight, at least for several days - I wouldn’t leave it like that if it was going to be stored for a long time, but that’s not what happening in shipping.

I’m not sure how simple the physics are but it’s certainly an interesting topic and points of view. Presumably a guitar neck is most balanced and movement is least (Newton’s 3rd law) when tuned up. I’d have thought the strings slacken momentarily when the neck flexes forward (shortens) on impact, rather than pull it further. So perhaps it’s the “whiplash” straightening/extension of the neck against the tuned strings that causes the problem.

Difficult scientific study without trashing lots of guitars, although it brings to mind that video of Gibson’s being crushed by a tractor a couple of years ago...this would have been a more useful way of destroying them!

There are two things resisting the pull of the strings.  You have the truss rod, but you also have the wood of the neck.  A significant amount of the force will be the wood of the neck, probably the majority of it - remember Martins didn't even have a steel truss rod until 1934.  I had a Tokai once where the truss rod slackened right off and rattled around, and the action was still ok. It's likely that more of the force is borne by the wood of the neck than the truss rod, especially on a DGT, which is not a skinny 24 fret neck.

On the rare occasions I've shipped guitars, I've slackened the strings a bit to reduce the tension, but not slackened them right off.

RaymondLin

A couple of times I order a guitar from the US, when it lands in this country, it gets handed over to Parcel Force as the sender used regular USPS and not UPS or FedEx. I mean if the guitar break then, I would think it would be impossible to prove any of it.

Musicwolf

Whether or not this is misselling is one for the proffesionals rather than us barrack-room lawyers.  The written T&Cs are clear but you specifically asked in the Post Office.  Was this a main Post Office / Parcel Force depot or an agent?  Could that person, even though they were representing Parcel Force, be reasonably expected to know the details of the insurance?  Can you prove that you ever had the discussion?

Whilst it's worth trying, I wouldn't be confident of an outcome in your favour.  What is the expected cost of the repair?

Maybe your best course of action would be to shame them through song - it worked for this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YGc4zOqozo

TeleMaster

WezV said:

TeleMaster said:

If you've gone to the post office and told them what it is, got insurance, and they've never stated it won't be insured, that's missold for definite. 

Could be hard to prove though. 

I have gone in before and told them I am sending a guitar.  They asked value and tried to sell me insurance.  I pointed out their policy didn't cover instruments.  She told me she was sure it did and I should really pay for it.

Yea but how do you prove that?

And if you knew the policy and did it anyway, that would then prove that you knew it wasn't covered so I would guess that you would find it difficult getting anything from them and that omission would go against someone. 

HAL9000

danishbacon said:

...detention the strings...

... if they've been naughty in class ;-)

HAL9000

ICBM said:

It’s absolutely not a ‘comfort step’ and it makes a real difference to the chance of it breaking if the case is dropped heavily, which is something which is likely during shipping and very rare otherwise.

The reason is very simple - the strings put the neck under a lot of stress, typically a force of about 100lb tension. If it flexes forwards heavily, the tension will pull it further, beyond the point where it then breaks, which would not have happened otherwise.

If the package hasn’t been opened, that is in fact exactly what has happened here.

It’s also the common cause of broken Gibson headstocks when the case falls onto its front.

It’s simple physics, and I don’t know why PRS recommend otherwise - many manufacturers do in fact ship them detuned, which is how most guitars arrive at shops - not fully slack, but nowhere near at full tension. Experienced repairers like Dan Erlewine also recommend detuning.

The truss rod does not create the same sort of force in the opposite direction at all, and the tension of it will not break a neck - and certainly not a headstock which the truss rod has no effect on. It’s perfectly safe to take all the string tension off and leave the truss rod tight, at least for several days - I wouldn’t leave it like that if it was going to be stored for a long time, but that’s not what happening in shipping.

I assume the difference between string tension and truss rod tension is that the truss rod being inside the neck can never be attempting to bend the neck by more than a few mm. The strings, on the other hand, are always doing their best to bend or break the neck.

Hope the OP gets this sorted. As others have already said. I almost feel physically sick looking at the pics.

ICBM

HAL9000 said:

I assume the difference between string tension and truss rod tension is that the truss rod being inside the neck can never be attempting to bend the neck by more than a few mm. The strings, on the other hand, are always doing their best to bend or break the neck.

Exactly - the truss rod doesn't work in the same way as the string tension at all, it isn't simple a balancing force pulling in the opposite direction. It's more complicated than that - it's a curved rod under tension, which produces a backwards curvature in the neck, only in the section the truss rod covers. It applies a compressive force internally in the neck, not one that acts outside the neck itself, and will not break the neck.

WezV

TeleMaster said:

WezV said:

TeleMaster said:

If you've gone to the post office and told them what it is, got insurance, and they've never stated it won't be insured, that's missold for definite. 

Could be hard to prove though. 

I have gone in before and told them I am sending a guitar.  They asked value and tried to sell me insurance.  I pointed out their policy didn't cover instruments.  She told me she was sure it did and I should really pay for it.

Yea but how do you prove that?

And if you knew the policy and did it anyway, that would then prove that you knew it wasn't covered so I would guess that you would find it difficult getting anything from them and that omission would go against someone. 

I didn't pay.  I told her to familiarise herself with the policies she was selling

TeleMaster

WezV said:

TeleMaster said:

WezV said:

TeleMaster said:

If you've gone to the post office and told them what it is, got insurance, and they've never stated it won't be insured, that's missold for definite. 

Could be hard to prove though. 

I have gone in before and told them I am sending a guitar.  They asked value and tried to sell me insurance.  I pointed out their policy didn't cover instruments.  She told me she was sure it did and I should really pay for it.

Yea but how do you prove that?

And if you knew the policy and did it anyway, that would then prove that you knew it wasn't covered so I would guess that you would find it difficult getting anything from them and that omission would go against someone. 

I didn't pay.  I told her to familiarise herself with the policies she was selling

Smart move.  

Johnnyseven

TeleMaster said:

If you've gone to the post office and told them what it is, got insurance, and they've never stated it won't be insured, that's missold for definite. 

Could be hard to prove though. 

If it was deemed to be missold surely all you're likely to get back is a refund for the cost of the insurance?