Thank You Parcelforce, for ridding the world of a PRS.

bgmartinsbridge

Did a bit of research for you... 

Try a personal email - this is about as close as you'll get to a personal email address. 

Royal Mail Plc
Mr Rico Back	Group Chief Executive Officer
Email	ceo.office@royalmail.com

TTony

bgmartinsbridge said:

Did a bit of research for you... 

Try a personal email - this is about as close as you'll get to a personal email address. 

Royal Mail Plc
Mr Rico Back	Group Chief Executive Officer
Email	ceo.office@royalmail.com

He left, last week.

Johnnyseven

Headphones said:

Surly the word "negligence" must enter here?

If the guitar was damaged by PF, while reasonably well packaged...  Then they are liable - regardless of their "terms".

Their care of the item has not been, in any way (as demonstrated by the arrival state) reasonable.  So they should surely recompense the victim.

Maybe there's some rather unusual precedent here, but that seems a simple "reasonable" argument.

Wouldn't you have to prove it was damaged in transit somehow? Not saying it was but would PF ask you to prove it wasn't damaged before posting it?

Bod

bgmartinsbridge said:

Mr Snappo Neck	Group Chief Executive Officer

FTFY

WezV

77ric said:

tone1 said:

@JezWynd That’s exactly what happened.. they ask me what’s in the box, I tell them it’s a guitar, they ask me it’s value, I’ll tell them, they say to cover it’s value they sell me an insurance policy without explaining what it is I’m buying which is not allowed when you sell insurance products...what’s the process for small claims court? 

I am not entirely sure that will work purely on the technicality that they don’t sell ‘insurance’ but ‘enhanced compensation’, I’ve got a feeling deep in the back of my mind somewhere that it’s not regarded as insurance in the way you would normally consider it. Still always worth a shot of course. 

Musical instruments are excluded from the enhanced compensation, but I can’t see anywhere in the literature that says musical instruments are excluded from the basic compensation that is included, so you may at least get something back to cover or at least offset the cost of the repair. 

Either way the difficulty I see is in proving that the hard case it was sent in was actually suitable for the intended purpose. So be prepared for that angle. 

I do think that it is a little unfair to expect the post office staff to be aware of all the restrictions and exclusions for upwards of a dozen different services especially with regards to Parcelforce which on average forms fewer that a couple of percent of the offices entire throughput, most of which will be prepaid services. After all it is Parcelforce that cant handle a parcel carefully that is the issue. 

I think it's fair to expect them to know the contents of the leaflet they staple to the receipt and basic details of the product they sell.  It used to state the musical instrument exclusion quite clearly, been a few years since I posted with them

DanR

WezV said:

77ric said:

tone1 said:

@JezWynd That’s exactly what happened.. they ask me what’s in the box, I tell them it’s a guitar, they ask me it’s value, I’ll tell them, they say to cover it’s value they sell me an insurance policy without explaining what it is I’m buying which is not allowed when you sell insurance products...what’s the process for small claims court? 

I am not entirely sure that will work purely on the technicality that they don’t sell ‘insurance’ but ‘enhanced compensation’, I’ve got a feeling deep in the back of my mind somewhere that it’s not regarded as insurance in the way you would normally consider it. Still always worth a shot of course. 

Musical instruments are excluded from the enhanced compensation, but I can’t see anywhere in the literature that says musical instruments are excluded from the basic compensation that is included, so you may at least get something back to cover or at least offset the cost of the repair. 

Either way the difficulty I see is in proving that the hard case it was sent in was actually suitable for the intended purpose. So be prepared for that angle. 

I do think that it is a little unfair to expect the post office staff to be aware of all the restrictions and exclusions for upwards of a dozen different services especially with regards to Parcelforce which on average forms fewer that a couple of percent of the offices entire throughput, most of which will be prepaid services. After all it is Parcelforce that cant handle a parcel carefully that is the issue. 

I think it's fair to expect them to know the contents of the leaflet they staple to the receipt and basic details of the product they sell.  It used to state the musical instrument exclusion quite clearly, been a few years since I posted with them

All it needs is for the terminal to tell them.

You try to sell insurance on anything restricted and the system doesn’t allow you to and problem solved.

77ric

DanR said:

WezV said:

77ric said:

tone1 said:

@JezWynd That’s exactly what happened.. they ask me what’s in the box, I tell them it’s a guitar, they ask me it’s value, I’ll tell them, they say to cover it’s value they sell me an insurance policy without explaining what it is I’m buying which is not allowed when you sell insurance products...what’s the process for small claims court? 

I am not entirely sure that will work purely on the technicality that they don’t sell ‘insurance’ but ‘enhanced compensation’, I’ve got a feeling deep in the back of my mind somewhere that it’s not regarded as insurance in the way you would normally consider it. Still always worth a shot of course. 

Musical instruments are excluded from the enhanced compensation, but I can’t see anywhere in the literature that says musical instruments are excluded from the basic compensation that is included, so you may at least get something back to cover or at least offset the cost of the repair. 

Either way the difficulty I see is in proving that the hard case it was sent in was actually suitable for the intended purpose. So be prepared for that angle. 

I do think that it is a little unfair to expect the post office staff to be aware of all the restrictions and exclusions for upwards of a dozen different services especially with regards to Parcelforce which on average forms fewer that a couple of percent of the offices entire throughput, most of which will be prepaid services. After all it is Parcelforce that cant handle a parcel carefully that is the issue. 

I think it's fair to expect them to know the contents of the leaflet they staple to the receipt and basic details of the product they sell.  It used to state the musical instrument exclusion quite clearly, been a few years since I posted with them

All it needs is for the terminal to tell them.

You try to sell insurance on anything restricted and the system doesn’t allow you to and problem solved.

It would indeed be problem solved, unfortunately Post Office PLC are notoriously slow at rolling out those kind of things, it’s only in recent months the terminal want you to double confirm banking deposits. They started talking about doing that 6ish years ago! 

fretfinder

Don’t give up on Parcel Force. Different circumstance but a while ago I sent some pickups through the Post Office to Europe, uninsured as the buyer said he was happy with no insurance. They couldn’t be delivered and the tracking said they were being returned. I didn’t get them and heard nothing for ages, phoned up and was told they were at Heathrow and would soon be on the way back. I heard nothing for a month, phoned again and was told the package had been destroyed! After a couple of vociferous complaints from me I got a cheque back for the full value, which I was surprised about as they were uninsured but very pleased as I’d already refunded the buyer. Keep at ‘em don’t give up.

Musicwolf

The fact that Parcel Force will not insure musical instruments kind of suggests that they themselves know that they are incapable of handling them with sufficient care.

ourmaninthenorth

tone1 said:

DeeTee said:

tone1 said:

Evening all... Well it’s mine and as Gas says it was really well packed... I took it to the post office where they asked me what the box contained. I told them it was a guitar and they proceeded to take my extra money for insurance...I have just checked parcelforce website where it states that musical instruments aren’t covered.... If this is correct then why would they take my money knowing full well it wouldn’t be covered? 
I have submitted a claim, which will probably be rejected... I will then take my fight to the post office in question.....I feel sick

Complain about the selling insurance part. If they're taking the money, they have a duty to you. If you don't get any satisfaction there, I'd be taking it to the Financial Ombudsman.

Have we got any PRS loving Lawyers lurking on here?

Don't know if he's a PRS geezer, but @JerkMoans ; is a Brief. 

Adey

Headphones said:

Surly the word "negligence" must enter here?

If the guitar was damaged by PF, while reasonably well packaged...  Then they are liable - regardless of their "terms".

Their care of the item has not been, in any way (as demonstrated by the arrival state) reasonable.  So they should surely recompense the victim.

Maybe there's some rather unusual precedent here, but that seems a simple "reasonable" argument.

Absolutely.

And if they sell you insurance for a musical instrument (and their Ts & Cs would normally exclude that), then this would be them offering to vary their Ts&Cs. It is a new offer from them to insure your musical instrument and you can accept this offer. (I had a similar issue with a Mobile Phone Provider offering me something that theirs terms said they didn't. I accepted their offer. They failed to deliver and said "we don't supply that". The Judge agreed with me, in that they had offered to do something, and had failed to deliver.)

Just tell them that you are putting a claim in to the small claims court. It's really easy. You don't need to employ a solicitor at all. If it gets to court the judge will treat you more than fairly and not expect you to be an expert in legal processes. You just need to be prepared for the process to take 3-6 months.

If PF don't immediately fold and give you the money, they will try to get the case heard in the farthest reaches of the UK to make it difficult for you. You just need to reply to the court that you are just an individual and that the big business should be easily able to attend court nearest you.

When I have had to go to court on similar things via Small Claims the judge has been surprised that the big business, with expert legal advice, hadn't immediately said "Yeah. Sorry. Fair Cop. Here's your money back. Sorry again..."

And if you don't win it has only cost you £30 or so for some interesting education.

tone1

Adey said:

Headphones said:

Surly the word "negligence" must enter here?

If the guitar was damaged by PF, while reasonably well packaged...  Then they are liable - regardless of their "terms".

Their care of the item has not been, in any way (as demonstrated by the arrival state) reasonable.  So they should surely recompense the victim.

Maybe there's some rather unusual precedent here, but that seems a simple "reasonable" argument.

Absolutely.

And if they sell you insurance for a musical instrument (and their Ts & Cs would normally exclude that), then this would be them offering to vary their Ts&Cs. It is a new offer from them to insure your musical instrument and you can accept this offer. (I had a similar issue with a Mobile Phone Provider offering me something that theirs terms said they didn't. I accepted their offer. They failed to deliver and said "we don't supply that". The Judge agreed with me, in that they had offered to do something, and had failed to deliver.)

Just tell them that you are putting a claim in to the small claims court. It's really easy. You don't need to employ a solicitor at all. If it gets to court the judge will treat you more than fairly and not expect you to be an expert in legal processes. You just need to be prepared for the process to take 3-6 months.

If PF don't immediately fold and give you the money, they will try to get the case heard in the farthest reaches of the UK to make it difficult for you. You just need to reply to the court that you are just an individual and that the big business should be easily able to attend court nearest you.

When I have had to go to court on similar things via Small Claims the judge has been surprised that the big business, with expert legal advice, hadn't immediately said "Yeah. Sorry. Fair Cop. Here's your money back. Sorry again..."

And if you don't win it has only cost you £30 or so for some interesting education.

Brilliant, thanks for the info

i_b_tulloch

I have used Parcel Force successfully numerous times with high value items, guitars,
amps etc. However, I always book through Interparcel for two reasons: it is always cheaper, and Interparcel has its own insurance which also covers the full value of Musical Instruments.

I wrote to Interparcel to get it in writing that if I paid for extra insurance cover and had an issue they would pay out, which they said they would.

I did have an issue with another courier returning building material, which went missing, and Interparcel handled it all so I wasn’t out of pocket.

I think all Budget couriers are probably as good/bad as each other, it’s just what insurance they provide that separates them.

77ric

Adey said

And if they sell you insurance for a musical instrument (and their Ts & Cs would normally exclude that), then this would be them offering to vary their Ts&Cs. It is a new offer from them to insure your musical instrument and you can accept this offer. (I had a similar issue with a Mobile Phone Provider offering me something that theirs terms said they didn't. I accepted their offer. They failed to deliver and said "we don't supply that". The Judge agreed with me, in that they had offered to do something, and had failed deliver.)

It might not be that simple given that it was arranged via a third party and not directly with Parcelforce, which if was the case I would whole heartedly agree with you. 

Given that it was arranged via the post office and not Parcelforce I’m really not sure where the liability lies and I suspect unless you can prove where the damage was sustained I would reckon you would end up going round in circles trying to establish who is at fault for the damage, never mind who should Pay out to Cover it. 

The more I think about it the more I’m certain you will only get the cost of the enhanced compensation back from the particular Post Office branch and not much else apart from the basic compensation that is offered on the standard service. 

Having said all that I would like to be wrong and that it gets all sorted without leaving @tone1 out of pocket. 

Adey

If you aren't really sure where the liability might lie you can name two or more parties, if you want to, and take them to court, and let the Judge allocate responsibility. Judges in these cases (from my experience) are eminently fair reasonable and equitable.

I'd still start off by asking PF to sort it out and take it from there, depending upon what they say....

tone1

Adey said:

If you aren't really sure where the liability might lie you can name two parties if you want to take them to court and let the Judge allocate responsibility. Judges in these cases (from my experience) are eminently fair reasonable and equitable.

I'd still start of by asking PF to sort it out and take it from there, depending upon what they say....

Thanks for the advice 

Adey

.... and rather than email them, write to them via recorded delivery to the registered address for the attention of a suitable senior director in Customer Services (if you can find a name) or the department generally if you can't.

bgmartinsbridge

The issue you face is that parcelforce do offer insurance on musical instruments but only for loss. 

So if they are being pedantic they could say their policy is correct. 

They may argue that they don't offer insurance on damage of musical instruments as they know their process can not ensure safe handling of highly fragile items. 

However you could still argue misselling, as over the counter they did not say it was just for loss. 

I still think you should challenge their duty of care - and your best route is to email the ceo office. It's as close as you will get to speaking to someone senior and a personal letter to head office these days is slow and possibly ignored. 

Adey

Ultimately it doesn't really matter if they offer insurance or not. If the instrument has been properly packed and they damage it, they are liable.

How you go about getting your money back is down to the OP really. Big business relies on making it difficult for you and they will say it's not their fault most of the time.

If they won't pay up, and you are sure that they should, you final option is the Small Claim Court. As I said before, it's cheap, easy and you don't need to be an expert.

Hopefully it gets sorted out before that.

tone1

Interestingly I went to the post office in question where i showed them the pictures of the damage. They said ‘Lucky you took out the extra insurance’ 
I still haven’t heard anything from my online claim...I will be chasing after the bank holiday