Does anyone *NOT* like valve amps?

Seziertisch

Sound and playing feel are what a good valve amp brings to the table.

Their disadvantages are many though, all of which have been said above - weight, size, reliability, maintenance costs etc.

However, the biggest downside for me is how amp tone and volume are connected i.e. louder sounds better. We’ve all been to gigs where the guitarist is playing something inappropriately big (like a 100w head and a 4x12 in a smallish pub) He has two choices, either keep the volume down to an appropriate level and sound aenemic or push the volume to a point where the amp is working and sounding like it should and swamp the entire band and the PA system. Neither option is desirable, in a situation like that a solid state or modelling amp will probably sound better. I know there are good attenuators out there nowadays but that is just more faff in most situations, like here is another heavy item to bring along to the gig

jonnyburgo

Thing is most people obsess over valve amps and then stick 6 or 7 pedals in front of it! To be honest I like both. I cureently use a Fender Deluxe 90 DSP amp at home and a few pedals. I always sound like me whatever I use.

PolarityMan

Seziertisch said:

Sound and playing feel are what a good valve amp brings to the table.

Their disadvantages are many though, all of which have been said above - weight, size, reliability, maintenance costs etc.

However, the biggest downside for me is how amp tone and volume are connected i.e. louder sounds better. We’ve all been to gigs where the guitarist is playing something inappropriately big (like a 100w head and a 4x12 in a smallish pub) He has two choices, either keep the volume down to an appropriate level and sound aenemic or push the volume to a point where the amp is working and sounding like it should and swamp the entire band and the PA system. Neither option is desirable, in a situation like that a solid state or modelling amp will probably sound better. I know there are good attenuators out there nowadays but that is just more faff in most situations, like here is another heavy item to bring along to the gig

The guitar should be loud, this is rock music FFS. I'm kinda sick of the perceived wisdom that you ened to run your amp quiet to get a good overall sound. a very high proportion of videos I watch back of small gigs all you can hear is bass drum and vocals. Just turn the damn thing up.

thecolourbox

PolarityMan said:

Seziertisch said:

Sound and playing feel are what a good valve amp brings to the table.

Their disadvantages are many though, all of which have been said above - weight, size, reliability, maintenance costs etc.

However, the biggest downside for me is how amp tone and volume are connected i.e. louder sounds better. We’ve all been to gigs where the guitarist is playing something inappropriately big (like a 100w head and a 4x12 in a smallish pub) He has two choices, either keep the volume down to an appropriate level and sound aenemic or push the volume to a point where the amp is working and sounding like it should and swamp the entire band and the PA system. Neither option is desirable, in a situation like that a solid state or modelling amp will probably sound better. I know there are good attenuators out there nowadays but that is just more faff in most situations, like here is another heavy item to bring along to the gig

The guitar should be loud, this is rock music FFS. I'm kinda sick of the perceived wisdom that you ened to run your amp quiet to get a good overall sound. a very high proportion of videos I watch back of small gigs all you can hear is bass drum and vocals. Just turn the damn thing up.

Beg your pardon?

Creed_Clicks

As I don't gig currently (who does!) , I have a Quilter 101 reverb head. I had a pro junior for a while, which seemed to have a it of "oooomph" out of it, but I don't really miss tube amps. Maybe a 5 watt one for the house some day, but I think I'd be happy enough to gig solid state amps in the future.

UnclePsychosis

The price is certainly something that grinds my gears.

Some companies are seriously taking the piss with their pricing models. If you're into Fender flavoured things you can pretty much expect to pay through the nose for designs that are over fifty years old and were often created initially as practice amps. Boutique champs etc are terrifyingly dear. 

vanlooy1

I’ve had several amps that are well over 40 years old including an old Traynor which I used regularly that sill had the original output valves, aside from changing the large filter caps it needed zero maintenance and never once let me down (and sounded great). I can’t imagine they’ll be many modellers still going strong after 40 plus years.

Danny1969

Always prefer a valve amp, be it for gigs or practice. If I can't have one then there are a few SS designs that sound OK with a few pedals. I don't like any of the  modelling amps I've tried like the THR or the Katana, they always have a shed load of effects but the basic sound is pretty poor. 

Valve amps are pretty cheap these days too if your not a gear snob. I haven't spent more than £340 on any valve amp I own with most of them around the £200 mark 2nd hand. I've never really had any problems with reliability across thousands of gigs other than a JMP-1 transformer going, a pre amp valve in a HT5 and my Marshall EL34 100 \ 100 sucked in some metallic confetti which caused one side to go. That's all that's happened since 2001 when I stopped giging a Tech 21 Trademark 60 and went valve again. Sure valves can go like light bulbs but this is an end user replaceable part. At a gig if necessary. Try changing any single part of a modern class D modelling amp. be it a cap or the switching transistor or the  pulse width mod chip at a gig .... ain't gonna happen;)

The amps in my workshop at the mo are Line 6 Spider combo, keeps cutting out, not looked at it yet. Mark Bass head with blown up class D power stage and an Alto class D PA speaker. None of these are going to be an easy fix that's for sure. 

olafgarten

vanlooy1 said:

I’ve had several amps that are well over 40 years old including an old Traynor which I used regularly that sill had the original output valves, aside from changing the large filter caps it needed zero maintenance and never once let me down (and sounded great). I can’t imagine they’ll be many modellers still going strong after 40 plus years.

There is no reason they can't still work, my Dad still has a Compaq LTE he used to use for work, that's 30ish years old now. Not that it's useful for anything, but that's mostly because it won't connect to the Internet. 

ICBM

vanlooy1 said:

I’ve had several amps that are well over 40 years old including an old Traynor which I used regularly that sill had the original output valves, aside from changing the large filter caps it needed zero maintenance and never once let me down (and sounded great). I can’t imagine they’ll be many modellers still going strong after 40 plus years.

It’s not modellers so much, it’s anything with a switch-mode power supply - these are pretty much destined to fail eventually by design, and although repairable at component level up to a point, quickly become too difficult and uneconomical. Class D amps can be similar.

The problem with modellers is custom chips - if they fail and the manufacturer doesn’t have spares it’s game over - but they are not inherently destined to fail. Some will, but most will work more or less indefinitely.

Even keeping valve amps going into the far future will need a supply of electrolytic caps of the right values, as well as valves. This has actually become more likely given the trend to SMPS, but I could see the physical sizes and mountings becoming an issue in the future (though not insurmountable).

For absolute long-term reliability you probably want an old-school analogue solid-state amp with all discrete components or very basic ICs.

Jalapeno

57Deluxe said:

I don't like that they are more temperamental and expensive to retube and constant servicing. BUT I do like the sound, smell and overall old schoolness...

And the weight !  That is the biggest gripe for me.

Don't hate good SS or Modelling amps - but the dynamics and compression ARE different.

Toe_Knee

The only none valve amp I've managed to get a good sound out of was a peavey bandit redstripe.

And even that wasn't ideal for 'my' sound

Seziertisch

PolarityMan said:

Seziertisch said:

Sound and playing feel are what a good valve amp brings to the table.

Their disadvantages are many though, all of which have been said above - weight, size, reliability, maintenance costs etc.

However, the biggest downside for me is how amp tone and volume are connected i.e. louder sounds better. We’ve all been to gigs where the guitarist is playing something inappropriately big (like a 100w head and a 4x12 in a smallish pub) He has two choices, either keep the volume down to an appropriate level and sound aenemic or push the volume to a point where the amp is working and sounding like it should and swamp the entire band and the PA system. Neither option is desirable, in a situation like that a solid state or modelling amp will probably sound better. I know there are good attenuators out there nowadays but that is just more faff in most situations, like here is another heavy item to bring along to the gig

The guitar should be loud, this is rock music FFS. I'm kinda sick of the perceived wisdom that you ened to run your amp quiet to get a good overall sound. a very high proportion of videos I watch back of small gigs all you can hear is bass drum and vocals. Just turn the damn thing up.

That’s all well and good but ultimately if you are playing in a band, at least in my opinion, your first responsibility is to make the band sound good. Swamping the mix with an overly loud guitar so that the other instruments are lost is not helping that. By all means turn up loud if you are playing in a setting that can accommodate that while not compromising the overall sound. I’ve seen some horror shows where guitarists have refused to drop the volume of their amps as that was their sound, with the result that it was nearly just guitar and as an audience member it was hard to say either way whether the band were any good or not.

And I think the same holds true for all elements in a band arrangement. A mate of mine went SXSW a few years ago as sound man for an up and coming band. They played lots of gigs in lots of different venues over the space of a couple of days, and my friend got to see a lot of the same bands playing gigs in a variety of venues, some bigger, some smaller. He said the better bands adjusted to the venue size, particularly the drummers in those bands played more or less heavy depending on the location, whereas the less able drummers tended to have a default setting regardless of where they were playing. This wasn’t a drastic thing now, just that the better drummers had a natural appreciation of how to make their kit sound best in the space they were in. As a result the bands with these drummers always sounded better, regardless of who was mixing them or where they were playing.

ICBM

Seziertisch said:

That’s all well and good but ultimately if you are playing in a band, at least in my opinion, your first responsibility is to make the band sound good. Swamping the mix with an overly loud guitar so that the other instruments are lost is not helping that. By all means turn up loud if you are playing in a setting that can accommodate that while not compromising the overall sound. I’ve seen some horror shows where guitarists have refused to drop the volume of their amps as that was their sound, with the result that it was nearly just guitar and as an audience member it was hard to say either way whether the band were any good or not.

This is exactly true - and it's one of the reasons I've always liked to use a 100W amp... because (a bit contrary to your previous post) you can adjust the volume independently of trying to use the volume to create the sound. At least, if the amp has a good master volume - many don't, I admit.

Just because an amp is capable of 100W doesn't mean you have to use it all - I actually play at about 15W usually, I know that from having used amps of that sort of power. I always found the big amp running fairly quietly filled the space better at a *lower* volume than the smaller amp cranked up, too.

UnclePsychosis

@ICBM ;;

Are there any brands that "tend" to have good master volumes (and any that don't) or is it very amp specific? 

HAL9000

As others have already said, valve amps tend to sound better and respond differently than SS amps. SS technology has come a long way in emulating the way that valve amps behave and we keep being promised that such and such an amp is absolutely valve-like in the way it sounds and reacts. The truth though is that we’re not (quite) there yet.

I’ve yet to actually try out a hybrid amp for myself but suspect that might be the way to achieve light weight coupled with valve tones. Also, what about these NuTube thingies?

WiresDreamDisasters

UnclePsychosis said:

@ICBM ;;

Are there any brands that "tend" to have good master volumes (and any that don't) or is it very amp specific? 

Master volumes IME tend to be pretty good these days. I think there may have been a period where they weren't so good or controllable on some of the popular amps at the time (maybe in the 90s??) and there's now this lingering thing where master volumes suck tone, or aren't controllable, etc.

My experience has been they're reasonably good at doing their job now.

ICBM

UnclePsychosis said:

Are there any brands that "tend" to have good master volumes (and any that don't) or is it very amp specific? 

Most of the Mesa and Rivera amps I’ve used have good ones - Mesa often have multiple ones (one usually called Output, or something similar) which helps since you can turn both down. I would generally agree with WiresDreamsDisasters - most modern amps tend to be fine, especially those designed for higher-gain sounds where it’s not expected that you will be using power stage overdrive.

It can be down to the individual amp sometimes though - I’ve played a few Marshall 2203s with good masters and plenty with bad ones...

Jalapeno

Seziertisch said:

particularly the drummers in those bands played more or less heavy depending on the location, whereas the less able drummers tended to have a default setting regardless of where they were playing. This wasn’t a drastic thing now, just that the better drummers had a natural appreciation of how to make their kit sound best in the space they were in. As a result the bands with these drummers always sounded better, regardless of who was mixing them or where they were playing.

Great insight, and totally spot on.

Also, in a similar vein guitarists need learn how to be able to find a spot to hear themselves rather than just keep turning up the volume - can be distance, beer crates, amp tilts, chairs etc ...

Barnezy

Valve amps are best in terms of sound and feel, no question. That is what moderlers and SS amps are trying to recreate. They also have longevity and retain their value if bought used.

SS and digital amps become obsolete within a few years as the tech moves forward. What cost you £1000 for a modeler, will be worth £100 in 10 years, so maybe not that much cheaper after all. They are great for low volume and adjustability. 

I have a HX Stomp and valve amps. I always enjoy playing my amps more.