Furore at Fulltone.

roberty

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

White people get defensive when they're reminded of their race. "Let's stop labelling people" and statements like that. The problem is that white people have the luxury of being able to ignore their skin colour. People who experience racism on an everyday basis do not. That is what is meant by privilege

Sorry. But when half the internet is going on and on about white privilege for coming up to a decade of my life now, you're wrong. I'm reminded of my race and racial issues every day, whether I want to be or not.

Ultimately, marxists gonna marx.

Well if you're offended more by being reminded of racial issues than you are by the fact that they exist that says more about you

Snags

@fnpt I agree that privilege is a loaded and often emotive term. Perhaps especially so in the UK, where it conjures up images of class, silver spoons, wing-tip collars, Eton and the Old Boy Network, the idle rich etc.

However, the simple fact is that (in the UK, and the USA as far as I can see), being white, and particularly being a white man does mean that you are in the privileged position of automatically simply not having to deal with a whole load shit that you would get on a daily basis if you were black, or female, or ... etc.

I don't feel guilty about that. I mostly feel pretty good about it, on a personal level, because I've enough other shit to be dealing with without adding to it. However, acknowledging it means I'd like that privilege to be extended to those that don't have it; for it not to be a position of privilege, but to be a position of universal normality.

Which I suspect is how you feel too, but the language used and a whole host of other subtle factors get your back up and get in the way of it (they sure as hell do for me at times; I see lots of stuff written which is so painfully right on I react against whilst still largely agreeing with the underpinning sentiment/desire of the author).

Unsupported assertion: probably doesn't help that a lot of these terms most likely start out in academic/debate circles where you can slice and dice the meaning and context and everyone can get to grips with them as 'technical' rather than common terms. Then us peasants get hold of them and all hell breaks loose.

WiresDreamDisasters

roberty said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

White people get defensive when they're reminded of their race. "Let's stop labelling people" and statements like that. The problem is that white people have the luxury of being able to ignore their skin colour. People who experience racism on an everyday basis do not. That is what is meant by privilege

Sorry. But when half the internet is going on and on about white privilege for coming up to a decade of my life now, you're wrong. I'm reminded of my race and racial issues every day, whether I want to be or not.

Ultimately, marxists gonna marx.

Well if you're offended more by being reminded of racial issues than you are by the fact that they exist that says more about you

I don't want to think of myself as a white person. I don't want black people to have to think of themselves as black. I don't want culture to be a prison that we are all locked into and can't get out of. I don't want historical injustices to be passed down through family trees like original sin in the bible. I don't want anyone to be trapped and unable to get away from labels that other people put on them. I don't want people to be forced to identify with statistics and generalisations. I don't want characteristics of birth to define people for the rest of their lives.

You seem to want all of those things. Which says a lot about you.

I'm not offended. I'm just not convinced by the particular worldview being pushed here. Very little of it makes sense when you start breaking it down and analysing the chunks.

jfraze5150

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

White people get defensive when they're reminded of their race. "Let's stop labelling people" and statements like that. The problem is that white people have the luxury of being able to ignore their skin colour. People who experience racism on an everyday basis do not. That is what is meant by privilege

Sorry. But when half the internet is going on and on about white privilege for coming up to a decade of my life now, you're wrong. I'm reminded of my race and racial issues every day, whether I want to be or not.

Ultimately, marxists gonna marx.

That really doesn’t come across very well. What an inconvenience it must be, a whole decade eh? And whether you want to be or not? Shame. 

jfraze5150

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

White people get defensive when they're reminded of their race. "Let's stop labelling people" and statements like that. The problem is that white people have the luxury of being able to ignore their skin colour. People who experience racism on an everyday basis do not. That is what is meant by privilege

Sorry. But when half the internet is going on and on about white privilege for coming up to a decade of my life now, you're wrong. I'm reminded of my race and racial issues every day, whether I want to be or not.

Ultimately, marxists gonna marx.

Well if you're offended more by being reminded of racial issues than you are by the fact that they exist that says more about you

I don't want to think of myself as a white person. I don't want black people to have to think of themselves as black. I don't want culture to be a prison that we are all locked into and can't get out of. I don't want historical injustices to be passed down through family trees like original sin in the bible. I don't want anyone to be trapped and unable to get away from labels that other people put on them. I don't want people to be forced to identify with statistics and generalisations. I don't want characteristics of birth to define people for the rest of their lives.

You seem to want all of those things. Which says a lot about you.

I'm not offended. I'm just not convinced by the particular worldview being pushed here. Very little of it makes sense when you start breaking it down and analysing the chunks.

With respect, I think you’re making Robertys point for him. The opinion you express above very much, comes from a place of privilege. You may not want people to judged by those things but they are. 

fnpt

@Snags You see, that's exactly it: normality not privilege. It's not a privilege to not be victim of racism and discrimination. I's normalcy. 

WiresDreamDisasters

jfraze5150 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

White people get defensive when they're reminded of their race. "Let's stop labelling people" and statements like that. The problem is that white people have the luxury of being able to ignore their skin colour. People who experience racism on an everyday basis do not. That is what is meant by privilege

Sorry. But when half the internet is going on and on about white privilege for coming up to a decade of my life now, you're wrong. I'm reminded of my race and racial issues every day, whether I want to be or not.

Ultimately, marxists gonna marx.

That really doesn’t come across very well. What an inconvenience it must be, a whole decade eh? And whether you want to be or not? Shame. 

.....

With respect, I think you’re making Robertys point for him. The opinion you express above very much, comes from a place of privilege. You may not want people to judged by those things but they are. 

A perfect response to illustrate my point. I rest my case. You and your ilk see this as a war. You don't mean to, but you do all the same.

You see it as a dichotomy between oppressed and oppressor. You see it only in terms of power and privilege. No other factors are brought into your worldview. You're so sure that you have all the answers that anyone or anything outside of your special little venn diagram is fodder for ridicule, dismissal, and antipathy.

There is no forgiveness or humility in your worldview. There is no fresh start. There are no second chances and there is no real progress. There is only endless circular condemnation, and taken to its ultimate conclusion - endless piles of bodies.

Go read The Gulag Archipelago and sort yourself out.

jfraze5150

Anyway, this is degenerating. White privilege is real whether you like the term or not. Let’s call it white luck then? Because there is statistical proof that if you’re white and male, you’ve won the genetic lottery at birth. 

My point, originally, yesterday, was let’s not be negative about Fuller being a twat, and instead do something positive like check out these two small pedal businesses run by people of colour. 

roberty

Astounding

Daigaijin

Oh Dear, Someone daring to deviate from approved opinions, heaven forefend where are my pearls that I might clutch them. So let me get this right scum bags destroying peoples livelihoods is OK but calling it out is not? Oh or is it that 'they who may not be criticised' are potentially perhaps may be alleged to be implicated, got it! I wonder why people are getting a little sick and tired

Snags

fnpt said:

@Snags You see, that's exactly it: normality not privilege. It's not a privilege to not be victim of racism and discrimination. I's normalcy. 

Well, it's normal for me, I'm a white middle-class male.

it's emphatically not normal (I'm told and have no reason to doubt) for the majority of black men in the USA and to a lesser extent in the UK.

The concept of 'prvilege' is there to highlight this discrepancy. If you just carry on assuming it's normal, it's easy to forget that actually, it isn't normal for a whole bunch of people based on nothing more than their ethnicity.

VJIves

If given the choice between 'feeling mildly irritated because the internet constantly reminds me I'm in a favourable position purely because of genetics' or 'worrying every time my kid leaves the house that they may not come back alive because their skin is dark', then I'm probably going to opt for 'being mildly irritated' (though personally I'm not). Not having to worry about that scenario is a real fucking privilege as far as I'm concerned. Mad that anyone sees this as a debate.

jfraze5150

WiresDreamDisasters said:

jfraze5150 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

White people get defensive when they're reminded of their race. "Let's stop labelling people" and statements like that. The problem is that white people have the luxury of being able to ignore their skin colour. People who experience racism on an everyday basis do not. That is what is meant by privilege

Sorry. But when half the internet is going on and on about white privilege for coming up to a decade of my life now, you're wrong. I'm reminded of my race and racial issues every day, whether I want to be or not.

Ultimately, marxists gonna marx.

That really doesn’t come across very well. What an inconvenience it must be, a whole decade eh? And whether you want to be or not? Shame. 

.....

With respect, I think you’re making Robertys point for him. The opinion you express above very much, comes from a place of privilege. You may not want people to judged by those things but they are. 

A perfect response to illustrate my point. I rest my case. You and your ilk see this as a war. You don't mean to, but you do all the same.

You see it as a dichotomy between oppressed and oppressor. You see it only in terms of power and privilege. No other factors are brought into your worldview. You're so sure that you have all the answers that anyone or anything outside of your special little venn diagram is fodder for ridicule, dismissal, and antipathy.

There is no forgiveness or humility in your worldview. There is no fresh start. There are no second chances and there is no real progress. There is only endless circular condemnation, and taken to its ultimate conclusion - endless piles of bodies.

Go read The Gulag Archipelago and sort yourself out.

What are you talking about man?!

Mental. Jumping to conclusions about communism and gulags?!

You’re telling on yourself mate. 

‘I don’t want to think about myself as a white man’  Thats the DEFINITION of white privilege.

Anyway, I’m out. It’s getting personal. I’ve read Solzhenitsen (sp?) btw, it’s a great book. 

Read any James Baldwin? The Fire Next Time is a classic. 

jfraze5150

Daigaijin said:

Oh Dear, Someone daring to deviate from approved opinions, heaven forefend where are my pearls that I might clutch them. So let me get this right scum bags destroying peoples livelihoods is OK but calling it out is not? Oh or is it that 'they who may not be criticised' are potentially perhaps may be alleged to be implicated, got it! I wonder why people are getting a little sick and tired

Oooft! Easy Nigel. 

roberty

Daigaijin said:

Oh Dear, Someone daring to deviate from approved opinions, heaven forefend where are my pearls that I might clutch them. So let me get this right scum bags destroying peoples livelihoods is OK but calling it out is not? Oh or is it that 'they who may not be criticised' are potentially perhaps may be alleged to be implicated, got it! I wonder why people are getting a little sick and tired

Triggered

WiresDreamDisasters

jfraze5150 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

jfraze5150 said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

roberty said:

White people get defensive when they're reminded of their race. "Let's stop labelling people" and statements like that. The problem is that white people have the luxury of being able to ignore their skin colour. People who experience racism on an everyday basis do not. That is what is meant by privilege

Sorry. But when half the internet is going on and on about white privilege for coming up to a decade of my life now, you're wrong. I'm reminded of my race and racial issues every day, whether I want to be or not.

Ultimately, marxists gonna marx.

That really doesn’t come across very well. What an inconvenience it must be, a whole decade eh? And whether you want to be or not? Shame. 

.....

With respect, I think you’re making Robertys point for him. The opinion you express above very much, comes from a place of privilege. You may not want people to judged by those things but they are. 

A perfect response to illustrate my point. I rest my case. You and your ilk see this as a war. You don't mean to, but you do all the same.

You see it as a dichotomy between oppressed and oppressor. You see it only in terms of power and privilege. No other factors are brought into your worldview. You're so sure that you have all the answers that anyone or anything outside of your special little venn diagram is fodder for ridicule, dismissal, and antipathy.

There is no forgiveness or humility in your worldview. There is no fresh start. There are no second chances and there is no real progress. There is only endless circular condemnation, and taken to its ultimate conclusion - endless piles of bodies.

Go read The Gulag Archipelago and sort yourself out.

What are you talking about man?!

Mental. Jumping to conclusions about communism and gulags?!

‘I don’t want to think about myself as a white man’  Thats the DEFINITION of white privilege.

Anyway, I’m out. It’s getting personal. I’ve read Solzhenitsen (sp?) btw, it’s a great book. 

Maybe try some James Baldwin? The Fire Next Time is a classic. 

Who mentioned communism? I didn't. But your proclivity to separate the world into haves and have nots, privileged and non-privileged, etc... directly comes from Marxist theory. It doesn't require communism. But that is directly his approach to evaluating social differences. Science be damned. He looks at the world in these false dichotomies, and leaves out a lot of other factors. His philosophy is not multi-variant.

In the 1960's and onwards academics took his theories and applied them to other areas of life - race, gender, sex, etc. That's where your knowledge comes from. But it's not the only knowledge-set we can use.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. Maybe one day you will. I hope so. It's a pretty sad way to live; always pitting groups of people against one another in your head instead of taking them for the individuals they are.

Look - I understand that there are issues with racism. I don't think the protests are wrong, but I do think the looting and destruction by people who don't give a shit about the issues is wrong. I am keenly aware of the problems that black people face in society. I have done my homework on this.

Which is precisely why I don't look at black people as a monolithic group. I don't look at white people as a monolithic group either. I have a lot of exposure to Spanish and Japanese people being that my family is composed of them. I don't look at them as a monolithic group either.

Forgive the term, but I refuse to whitewash people in this way. 

Daigaijin

roberty said:

Daigaijin said:

Oh Dear, Someone daring to deviate from approved opinions, heaven forefend where are my pearls that I might clutch them. So let me get this right scum bags destroying peoples livelihoods is OK but calling it out is not? Oh or is it that 'they who may not be criticised' are potentially perhaps may be alleged to be implicated, got it! I wonder why people are getting a little sick and tired

Triggered

Nah! Nothing on telly

Daigaijin

jfraze5150 said:

Daigaijin said:

Oh Dear, Someone daring to deviate from approved opinions, heaven forefend where are my pearls that I might clutch them. So let me get this right scum bags destroying peoples livelihoods is OK but calling it out is not? Oh or is it that 'they who may not be criticised' are potentially perhaps may be alleged to be implicated, got it! I wonder why people are getting a little sick and tired

Oooft! Easy Nigel.

I'm fine now thanks! 

roberty

So yeah, as I was saying, some white people get defensive when discussing race...

WiresDreamDisasters

 

What a lovely kafka-trap you've got there.