FOOTBALL - Ole Solskjaer out - how long before we here the chant rise from below

guitars4you

Jackobean said:

Teetonetal said:

They desperately need a squad refresh across multiple positions. The quality is just not there.

Debatable - they've spaffed obscene amounts in the transfer market since Ferguson departed and its made little difference.
Meanwhile, Utd's cast off players have taken up key positions in league winning teams across Europe.

Agree - it is almost obscene to have to rely on a spend spend spend policy and can apply that to big football, with all clubs, today - It is also about flair, vision, creativity, excitement - I'm guessing that it won't be long before Van De Beek moves on and some fans might say good - He was not a poor player before they signed him from Ajax for 35/40 million - I bet when he moves on he will once again show his true qualities  - Granted I don't know if there are any issues with the guy behind the scenes, but suspect it is more about how he is used and how he fits into the teams game plan - But IMO for what Mount offers Chelsea, then I could see VDB offering similar to MUFC 

And look at Jesse Lingard - Again I don't know what issues there maybe behind the scenes, whilst he twiddled his thumbs recently at MUFC - But that is not a crap player I see in a West Ham shirt

Schnozz

PHUCKIN' GRAAAAAVY!! 

Philly_Q

Teetonetal said:

They desperately need a squad refresh across multiple positions. The quality is just not there.

Speaking as someone who doesn't really know much about football - I certainly don't understand tactics, but I have 5 Live on all day every day so I hear an awful lot about it...

My impression would be that Man U have as many top players, and as much strength in depth, as any of the other teams near the top of the Premier League.  But they just don't seem to function as a team - or a rotating squad - as well as City, or Liverpool, or Chelsea on a good day, or even Leicester.  

At those other clubs there seems to be a real team ethic and everyone seems to know exactly where they're supposed to fit in.  Man U seems more like a collection of slightly-out-of-place talented individuals.

Having said that, comfortable second in the Premier League, runners-up in the Europa League, it's not really that bad a season.  And it does seem like Solskjaer has improved the mood at the club, even when performances have fallen a little short.

RaymondLin

Comparing to City, you have a point.  City seems to be able to bring in a player and their performances don't drop.  Dias with Stone or Laporte with Stone.  They defend as a unit and press as a unit.

Whether they have Foden with Mahrez on the wings or Sterling instead of Foden, they play as a unit.  Not really sure what magic fairy dust Pep hands out on his training ground but he has managed to instill the same style as his old Barca team when they were at their peak.  Every player is great but every player can also be replaced and rotated.  

earwighoney

RaymondLin said:

Comparing to City, you have a point.  City seems to be able to bring in a player and their performances don't drop.  Dias with Stone or Laporte with Stone.  They defend as a unit and press as a unit.

Whether they have Foden with Mahrez on the wings or Sterling instead of Foden, they play as a unit.  Not really sure what magic fairy dust Pep hands out on his training ground but he has managed to instill the same style as his old Barca team when they were at their peak.  Every player is great but every player can also be replaced and rotated.  

When you have who many see to be the greatest manager of all time, with a great scouting/recruitment network, and almost infinite funds to buy the right players, it's clear to see why City are doing so well, for example at times they have £200m of defenders sitting on the bench at many times (Laporte, Ake, Mendy etc).

WeZ84

RaymondLin said:

Comparing to City, you have a point.  City seems to be able to bring in a player and their performances don't drop.  Dias with Stone or Laporte with Stone.  They defend as a unit and press as a unit.

Whether they have Foden with Mahrez on the wings or Sterling instead of Foden, they play as a unit.  Not really sure what magic fairy dust Pep hands out on his training ground but he has managed to instill the same style as his old Barca team when they were at their peak.  Every player is great but every player can also be replaced and rotated.  

With City it's not just Pep's fairy dust, they have built a squad where you have "reserve" players that are so good that Pep can drop an out of form player who was previously first choice or cover for an injured "first choice" player and the team on the pitch doesn't suffer. They have built that through a combination of good training and good business in the transfer market. 

To get to that point takes time as you might need a few transfer windows to get the right players in. Once you have good competition for places the ones that are getting picked up their game so they don't get dropped - like Shaw has this season when Telles arrived. We still have some players who are undroppable or are playing with an injury or tired because the alternative player that could come in to replace them is not good enough. Until his injury, Maguire had played every premiership game this season whereas City were able to rotate Dias, Stones, Laporte etc and not suffer at the back.  In a few games this season where we have struggled, Ole has left the subs really late or not done them at all - looking at the bench last night, there was no one who you could say have come on and changed the game. Fergies teams like in 99 had players on the bench that you felt could make a difference if they came on. 

I think Ole has made some progress, he needs a few more signings to improve the squad depth United will hopefully be able to cope better in games where they need a plan B

axisus

Philly_Q said:

But they just don't seem to function as a team - or a rotating squad - as well as City, or Liverpool, or Chelsea on a good day, or even Leicester.  

Difficult to agree as they finished above Liverpool, Chelsea and Leics! The problem was too many draws not converted into wins. Man U's Bench isn't that great in my opinion.

City are best at it but their squad is insanely good compared to everyone else, plus Pep is arguably the best manager you can get these days if your club has money to burn. To be honest it would be interesting to see what Pep could do with a team like Spurs or Arsenal. Can he still cut the mustard when not presiding over the richest club?

jellyroll

axisus said:

Pep is arguably the best manager you can get these days if your club has money to burn. To be honest it would be interesting to see what Pep could do with a team like Spurs or Arsenal. Can he still cut the mustard when not presiding over the richest club?

Don't remember anybody asking that about Fergie.

Teetonetal

jellyroll said:

axisus said:

Pep is arguably the best manager you can get these days if your club has money to burn. To be honest it would be interesting to see what Pep could do with a team like Spurs or Arsenal. Can he still cut the mustard when not presiding over the richest club?

Don't remember anybody asking that about Fergie.

Well, he didn't start that way when he took over.. man u built up to the massive club they became and he achieved at Aberdeen too.

earwighoney

Philly_Q said:

Teetonetal said:

They desperately need a squad refresh across multiple positions. The quality is just not there.

Speaking as someone who doesn't really know much about football - I certainly don't understand tactics, but I have 5 Live on all day every day so I hear an awful lot about it...

My impression would be that Man U have as many top players, and as much strength in depth, as any of the other teams near the top of the Premier League.  But they just don't seem to function as a team - or a rotating squad - as well as City, or Liverpool, or Chelsea on a good day, or even Leicester.  

At those other clubs there seems to be a real team ethic and everyone seems to know exactly where they're supposed to fit in.  Man U seems more like a collection of slightly-out-of-place talented individuals.

Having said that, comfortable second in the Premier League, runners-up in the Europa League, it's not really that bad a season.  And it does seem like Solskjaer has improved the mood at the club, even when performances have fallen a little short.

@Philly_Q

Man Utd for the best part of the time, tactically set up pretty well, they play with a double pivot opposed to a single pivot, but they have some clear tactical failings, some of which come from the manager, and some of it come from the failings to address key positions in the team.

The reason why they seem slightly out of place, is the team have not bought in key positions and have required to play players out of position, the right wing position being the key one and central defensive midfield; which is why they need to often play with a double pivot; which can lead to the team sheet looking imbalanced.

IMO, the latter position is one of the most important parts of the jigsaw, City have Rodri/Fernandinho, Liverpool have Fabinho, Chelsea have Kante, Leicester have Ndid; all of these players are key to the team's transition between attack and defence.  Liverpool in recent weeks, with Fabinho playing back in midfield went on a run to a win a lot more games. 

As for the team having strength in depth, in some positions they are ok (left side of the pitch), right side of the pitch is an absolute shambles.

However the team makes a lot of mistakes, eg continuing to concede a lot of goals from set pieces, which IMO are a combination of fundamental flaws (eg players specific weaknesses).

IMO, a huge failing of the team isn't the tactical aspect, or how they function as a team, is the actual in game management and concentration isn't always as good as it can be, not to that of the best teams/managers in the division.

Even if they addressed the key failings of the squad, I don't think it would be enough to compete with Pep/Klopp with a fit squad, who's managerial prowesses are vastly superior. Tuchel's Chelsea if they address a few issues in their squad could be able to compete with City/Liverpool too.

The team is a good team, but lacks a few things preventing it from being an exceptional one.

Philly_Q

@earwighoney You lost me as soon as you started talking about pivots...

I did say I don't understand tactics!  I follow football (and most sports) quite closely, but I'm interested in all the facts and figures - the manager sackings, the signings, the mathematics of the league tables and the promotion/relegation battles.  

People talk about players having "a football brain" and I definitely haven't got one of those.  I can't see the formations on the pitch or spot the good and bad moves, at all.  To me, they all look like they're running around like headless chickens.

guitars4you

earwighoney said:

Philly_Q said:

Teetonetal said:

They desperately need a squad refresh across multiple positions. The quality is just not there.

Speaking as someone who doesn't really know much about football - I certainly don't understand tactics, but I have 5 Live on all day every day so I hear an awful lot about it...

My impression would be that Man U have as many top players, and as much strength in depth, as any of the other teams near the top of the Premier League.  But they just don't seem to function as a team - or a rotating squad - as well as City, or Liverpool, or Chelsea on a good day, or even Leicester.  

At those other clubs there seems to be a real team ethic and everyone seems to know exactly where they're supposed to fit in.  Man U seems more like a collection of slightly-out-of-place talented individuals.

Having said that, comfortable second in the Premier League, runners-up in the Europa League, it's not really that bad a season.  And it does seem like Solskjaer has improved the mood at the club, even when performances have fallen a little short.

@Philly_Q

Man Utd for the best part of the time, tactically set up pretty well, they play with a double pivot opposed to a single pivot, but they have some clear tactical failings, some of which come from the manager, and some of it come from the failings to address key positions in the team.

The reason why they seem slightly out of place, is the team have not bought in key positions and have required to play players out of position, the right wing position being the key one and central defensive midfield; which is why they need to often play with a double pivot; which can lead to the team sheet looking imbalanced.

IMO, the latter position is one of the most important parts of the jigsaw, City have Rodri/Fernandinho, Liverpool have Fabinho, Chelsea have Kante, Leicester have Ndid; all of these players are key to the team's transition between attack and defence.  Liverpool in recent weeks, with Fabinho playing back in midfield went on a run to a win a lot more games. 

As for the team having strength in depth, in some positions they are ok (left side of the pitch), right side of the pitch is an absolute shambles.

However the team makes a lot of mistakes, eg continuing to concede a lot of goals from set pieces, which IMO are a combination of fundamental flaws (eg players specific weaknesses).

IMO, a huge failing of the team isn't the tactical aspect, or how they function as a team, is the actual in game management and concentration isn't always as good as it can be, not to that of the best teams/managers in the division.

Even if they addressed the key failings of the squad, I don't think it would be enough to compete with Pep/Klopp with a fit squad, who's managerial prowesses are vastly superior. Tuchel's Chelsea if they address a few issues in their squad could be able to compete with City/Liverpool too.

The team is a good team, but lacks a few things preventing it from being an exceptional one.

IMO - Rashford and Greenwood are not natural wide man - Certainly in the old school traditional way - They are both more of a #8 who should work with/along side a #9 as required - That might even be an optional game plan B if A is not working - Don't think they are a genuine #9 either as per Kane/Cavani, but can go to that role if required, but again IMO not your first choice option  - So IMO I don't think MUFC get the best out of Rashford and Greenwood  and as such not sure the balance of the team is right when they play this 4-2-3-1 format - The old 4-4-2 would suit those 2 players better IMO  - Probably nothing wrong with 4-2-3-1 - But the 3 should be more like having three x #10's so Mata, Van De Beek and Fernandes, for example, so far more flexible/creative + attack minded goal scoring options - Let them float around as required and 1 drop deeper at times (rotate who this is) to pick up the ball from the pivot(s) and conduct the team from there - IMO the MUFC pivot, with those players is not a distribution/conductor set-up in the way that the likes of Pirlo use to play - McTominay had a good game last night, but he ain't the 'conductor'  - Granted not all teams need to play the same format

I agree that playing players out of position to fit the format and get them in the team can create an in-balance - Yet it can work sometimes - Many forget, don't know or can't recall, but the Brazil side of 1970 had 5 x #10's based on their club position players 7-8-9-10-11, Jairzinho, Gerson, Tostoa, Pele and Rivelino are all #10's - But of course such a team was exceptional 

Agree with the last line and hi-lighted

Hattigol

Ole's biggest mistake last night was not having the balls to substitute de Gea and bring on Henderson for the penalties. Managers need to make big calls sometimes and that was much needed. 

That isn't hindsight. Was in a WhatsApp group with 4 other United fans during the game and we all thought he had to do it. DDG hasn't saved a pen since 2016 in the League. For some unknown reason, he is just hopeless at them and if he was still facing them now 24 hrs on, I don't think he'd have stopped any.

Sad way for him to end his United career. Been a great keeper for most of his time with United. He's undoubtedly going with the news that Heaton has been signed.

Teetonetal

Hattigol said:

Ole's biggest mistake last night was not having the balls to substitute de Gea and bring on Henderson for the penalties. Managers need to make big calls sometimes and that was much needed. 

That isn't hindsight. Was in a WhatsApp group with 4 other United fans during the game and we all thought he had to do it. DDG hasn't saved a pen since 2016 in the League. For some unknown reason, he is just hopeless at them and if he was still facing them now 24 hrs on, I don't think he'd have stopped any.

Sad way for him to end his United career. Been a great keeper for most of his time with United. He's undoubtedly going with the news that Heaton has been signed.

DDG' lack of penalty saving skills was also called out on the Bbc live text, with same comment to bring Henderson on

Schnozz

Gotta watch it again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN5Tls-TBaI

axisus

It's a real bummer to lose after so many penalty scores. I'd prefer to fluff two of the first five. I can never watch penalties though (for Man U or England). After a sh*t year generally, and a sh*te time right now personally it was a surprisingly big body blow to lose. That's sport I guess though.

joeyowen

Ronaldo then?

menamestom

joeyowen said:

Ronaldo then?

Looks like it.  We need a DM more, hopefully it wasn’t one or the other.  

Doesn’t feel like the right signing but will probably pay for himself in shirt sales. Scored more than Lukaku last season, from less games.  Doubt I’ll be complaining if he does it again.

TeleMaster

Can’t wait to see Ronaldo in the Prem again. 

And if it keeps Utd from buying Rice, all the better!

DefaultM

My Juventus to win Serie A bet not looking too cracking a decision now.