Uh oh Fender... Instagram accusations of being misogynistic

digitalscream

Oh, and...

soma1975 said:

My world view is one of base fairness and equality so it would be pretty hard to not subscribe to it and not harbour some notion to the contrary. What is it specifically then you have a problem with about PC? 

So is mine, and yet we disagree.

My version of fairness and equality means treating everybody the same without regard to their immutable characteristics. That means that all groups of people can all make posts full of subjective innuendo about each other, just as all people regardless of their demographic can choose to find them funny or not. However, it also means that those people shouldn't make assumptions based on that which lead to them shouting, "BIGOT! BULLY!" at people who don't agree with them.

soma1975

digitalscream said:

Oh, and...

soma1975 said:

My world view is one of base fairness and equality so it would be pretty hard to not subscribe to it and not harbour some notion to the contrary. What is it specifically then you have a problem with about PC? 

So is mine, and yet we disagree.

My version of fairness and equality means treating everybody the same without regard to their immutable characteristics. That means that all groups of people can all make posts full of subjective innuendo about each other, just as all people regardless of their demographic can choose to find them funny or not. However, it also means that those people shouldn't make assumptions based on that which lead to them shouting, "BIGOT! BULLY!" at people who don't agree with them.

Even to groups of historically oppressed demographics? About the things that have been used for centuries to oppress them?

Cool.

digitalscream

soma1975 said:

You've still not answered my question. It's clear you won't so I won't ask a third time.

Define 'a lot' of people who believe personhole is the way forward in terms of the greater conversation. It's simply one example of the type of extreme story that gets picked up on and rinsed to death by the people who want to maintain their ability to speak without being called on it.

Political Correctness is about protecting people. The people who want to continue to maintain the staus quo and who control the narrative weaponise the language of empathy so the 'do-gooder' the 'snowflake' and 'political correctness' become pejoratives and 'PC gone mad' becomes a way of complaining about being called out on your shit. 

As for your last point. Women are disadvantaged. The post plays on the idea of sexy Brazilian women and putting them on your knee of having them around your neck and you know, compares them to objects. I'm sure you know that and are just being deliberately obtuse for the sake our a conversation. It's not about the intent which I feel was a bit Nigel Tufnel 'hey what's wrong with being sexy?'

It's about the PR team retweeting it and not giving it a second thought. Which was a mistake. End of. 

I've nothing really further to add so shall leave you to it. 


EDIT: Oh I do have 1 more thing. All Fender needed to do was go, 'oh yeah sorry that was a bit naff we didn't really pay attention to the description' when some of their artists called it out. The end. 

I never intended to answer your question, I'm trying (and clearly failing) to walk you through a thought process.

For the record...

Take a look at this.

27,200,000 results, most of the first few pages being about people campaigning for gender-neutral language everywhere. It's not an extreme outlier, it's quite commonplace - just not in your neck of the woods.

As for women being disadvantaged...you're still making the assumption that it was deliberately targeting women. You can't let go of it, and you can't see anything outside your own opinion and pronounced judgements.

And now you're making yet another assumption - that they reposted it without giving it a second thought. 

Consider a different scenario, if you can: dude got a photo of a couple of guitars with Brazilian rosewood fretboards back from the photographer. An intern wandering past said, "Hurr hurrr, lovely pair of Brazilian ladies you've got there...", and dude thinks, "Jesus, man, that's sexist! I can make it more equal-opportunities and vaguely amusing, though - just get rid of the 'ladies' bit and let it apply to everybody...".

Same result, entirely different intent to the one you've imagined for yourself. It may or may not be true - just as your assumed scenario may or may not be true. The difference between us is that I know I don't know the intent behind it; you insist that you do, despite neither of us ever having actually asked the question of the author.

The only conclusion I can draw from your lack of willingness to consider anything beyond your own opinions is that you want it to be true. That's not a good enough reason for me, and it shouldn't be for you either - because in that world, nothing can ever change.

WiresDreamDisasters

The idea that a bunch of white dudes on a guitar forum get to play patriarchal protector for some imaginary oppressed women in their heads is amazing.

digitalscream

soma1975 said:

Even to groups of historically oppressed demographics? About the things that have been used for centuries to oppress them?

Cool.

I simply treat everybody the same as they are now. I'm reasonably sure almost nobody alive has been oppressing women for hundreds or thousands of years; I know I haven't.

soma1975

digitalscream said:

soma1975 said:

You've still not answered my question. It's clear you won't so I won't ask a third time.

Define 'a lot' of people who believe personhole is the way forward in terms of the greater conversation. It's simply one example of the type of extreme story that gets picked up on and rinsed to death by the people who want to maintain their ability to speak without being called on it.

Political Correctness is about protecting people. The people who want to continue to maintain the staus quo and who control the narrative weaponise the language of empathy so the 'do-gooder' the 'snowflake' and 'political correctness' become pejoratives and 'PC gone mad' becomes a way of complaining about being called out on your shit. 

As for your last point. Women are disadvantaged. The post plays on the idea of sexy Brazilian women and putting them on your knee of having them around your neck and you know, compares them to objects. I'm sure you know that and are just being deliberately obtuse for the sake our a conversation. It's not about the intent which I feel was a bit Nigel Tufnel 'hey what's wrong with being sexy?'

It's about the PR team retweeting it and not giving it a second thought. Which was a mistake. End of. 

I've nothing really further to add so shall leave you to it. 


EDIT: Oh I do have 1 more thing. All Fender needed to do was go, 'oh yeah sorry that was a bit naff we didn't really pay attention to the description' when some of their artists called it out. The end. 

I never intended to answer your question, I'm trying (and clearly failing) to walk you through a thought process.

For the record...

Take a look at this.

27,200,000 results, most of the first few pages being about people campaigning for gender-neutral language everywhere. It's not an extreme outlier, it's quite commonplace - just not in your neck of the woods.

As for women being disadvantaged...you're still making the assumption that it was deliberately targeting women. You can't let go of it, and you can't see anything outside your own opinion and pronounced judgements.

Are you serious? Thread upon thread on here talking about how creepy it is when people refer to their guitars as female. Stop acting like it's an unknown phenomenon to you. Then tons of women say they felt it was creepy of a bit off. And now they are wrong too. Yeah those silly women should just get a grip and deal with it....

As for your first bit. Again absurd. There's also millions of hits for 'people who complain about political correctness' too.

There is a world of difference between gender neutral language in the workplace - I'm a cameraman camera operator by trade so get it completely - and the Personhole people I alluded to earlier which is absolutely an extreme outlier in that conversation. Yet again you are being deliberately obtuse.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall ever having a crossed word with you before on here until this thread. We are clearly not going to reconcile our stances on this and it's Saturday evening so I will you a lovely evening and leave it there. 

poopot

Deffo the sunburst one...

unless they do a sonic blue one...

zepp76

AlexC said:

At least we know that a Fender Trans Acoustic is neither male nor female. 

@soma1975 what do you think the purpose of this post was? 

1. To be funny by alluding to the fact a guitar has no gender?

2.  To be funny but be unintentionally offensive by assuming Trans means you can’t identify as male or female?

3. Just be blatantly transphobic?

4. None of the above (please feel free to specify what else it may allude to).

soma1975

zepp76 said:

AlexC said:

At least we know that a Fender Trans Acoustic is neither male nor female. 

@soma1975 what do you think the purpose of this post was? 

1. To be funny by alluding to the fact a guitar has no gender?

2.  To be funny but be unintentionally offensive by assuming Trans means you can’t identify as male or female?

3. Just be blatantly transphobic?

4. None of the above (please feel free to specify what else it may allude to).

As I got a notification because you tagged me and I came back in I'd say it was

4) A shit attempt at a joke which doesn't work on a few levels. Not least because its premise is incorrect. I'm sure there was a Fender Trans Acoustic joke to be made but that wasn't it and frankly you'd have to be mad to attempt it publicly. And if you did I doubt very much that Fender would retweet it.

Hope that helps. 

WiresDreamDisasters

The better joke would have been neither acoustic nor electric.

Philly_Q

This is one of those threads where people amaze me with their persistence in typing out lengthy back-and-forth arguments despite there being not a chance in hell of changing anyone else's opinion.  Oh well, on you go.

poopot

Showed this thread to the mrs...

the only thing she really said was that she’d “bang the shit out of the two boys in the second post”

”ruin them” was another phrase she used.

soma1975

Philly_Q said:

This is one of those threads where people amaze me with their persistence in typing out lengthy back-and-forth arguments despite there being not a chance in hell of changing anyone else's opinion.  Oh well, on you go.

Guilty. And why I've had to stop myself. 

WiresDreamDisasters

poopot said:

Showed this thread to the mrs...

the only thing she really said was that she’d “bang the shit out of the two boys in the second post”

”ruin them” was another phrase she used.

I haven't showed this thread to my wife. I don't want to expose her to dangerous male feminists who are ticking time bombs!

AlexC

soma1975 said:

zepp76 said:

AlexC said:

At least we know that a Fender Trans Acoustic is neither male nor female. 

@soma1975 what do you think the purpose of this post was? 

1. To be funny by alluding to the fact a guitar has no gender?

2.  To be funny but be unintentionally offensive by assuming Trans means you can’t identify as male or female?

3. Just be blatantly transphobic?

4. None of the above (please feel free to specify what else it may allude to).

As I got a notification because you tagged me and I came back in I'd say it was

4) A shit attempt at a joke which doesn't work on a few levels. Not least because its premise is incorrect. I'm sure there was a Fender Trans Acoustic joke to be made but that wasn't it and frankly you'd have to be mad to attempt it publicly. And if you did I doubt very much that Fender would retweet it.

Hope that helps. 

Right... as the person that made that post, rather than have people perhaps try and explain my intent for me - no offence @zepp76 because I understand entirely the point you were making with your comments as questions
1) It was a play on words. A very obvious one. 

2) I do concur that it wasn’t a very smart joke and there was a better punchline. 

3) in some ways it was a parody of some of the comments on this thread.
4) It was not meant to be offensive to anyone. And certainly not inflammatory.
5) As the father of a gay man and a daughter who is pan sexual and heavily involved in the LGBTQ community I am not anything phobic.
6) Shame I felt I had to justify myself in point 5!
7) Am I mad to make such a joke on a public forum? Well... possibly. But that, in itself, is in the view of the individual reader. Which, I think, is kind of what this thread has become about.

WiresDreamDisasters

AlexC said:

soma1975 said:

zepp76 said:

AlexC said:

At least we know that a Fender Trans Acoustic is neither male nor female. 

@soma1975 what do you think the purpose of this post was? 

1. To be funny by alluding to the fact a guitar has no gender?

2.  To be funny but be unintentionally offensive by assuming Trans means you can’t identify as male or female?

3. Just be blatantly transphobic?

4. None of the above (please feel free to specify what else it may allude to).

As I got a notification because you tagged me and I came back in I'd say it was

4) A shit attempt at a joke which doesn't work on a few levels. Not least because its premise is incorrect. I'm sure there was a Fender Trans Acoustic joke to be made but that wasn't it and frankly you'd have to be mad to attempt it publicly. And if you did I doubt very much that Fender would retweet it.

Hope that helps. 

Right... as the person that made that post, rather than have people perhaps try and explain my intent for me - no offence @zepp76 because I understand entirely the point you were making with your comments as questions
1) It was a play on words. A very obvious one. 

2) I do concur that it wasn’t a very smart joke and there was a better punchline. 

3) in some ways it was a parody of some of the comments on this thread.
4) It was not meant to be offensive to anyone. And certainly not inflammatory.
5) As the father of a gay man and a daughter who is pan sexual and heavily involved in the LGBTQ community I am not anything phobic.
6) Shame I felt I had to justify myself in point 5!
7) Am I mad to make such a joke on a public forum? Well... possibly. But that, in itself, is in the view of the individual reader. Which, I think, is kind of what this thread has become about.

Yeah right, fuck off clean shirt! You're clearly a homophobe and a racist and a bigot! You made a baby, which means you hate the environment too!

soma1975

AlexC said:

Right... as the person that made that post, rather than have people perhaps try and explain my intent for me - no offence @zepp76 because I understand entirely the point you were making with your comments as questions
1) It was a play on words. A very obvious one. 

2) I do concur that it wasn’t a very smart joke and there was a better punchline. 

3) in some ways it was a parody of some of the comments on this thread.
4) It was not meant to be offensive to anyone. And certainly not inflammatory.
5) As the father of a gay man and a daughter who is pan sexual and heavily involved in the LGBTQ community I am not anything phobic.
6) Shame I felt I had to justify myself in point 5!
7) Am I mad to make such a joke on a public forum? Well... possibly. But that, in itself, is in the view of the individual reader. Which, I think, is kind of what this thread has become about.

I was asked about it specifically otherwise I wouldn't have given a joke police critique. In truth I don't feel I was asked in good faith but rather to make some other point but who knows.

I didn't think it was offensive. 

I thought it was a shit joke that didn't work. 

I don't count here as public because most people here are warped miscreants to begin with. I mean you'd be mad to do it on Twitter.

AlexC

@soma1975 Don’t want to derail this thread, but in allusion to Twitter and myself making other shit jokes... It was the night before the Scottish Independence Referendum. (I’m English, I live in Scotland. I’m ‘British’ as far as I’m concerned). And I tweeted this joke -

An Englishman and a Welshman walk into a pub, look around and say “Bit quiet in here tonight, isn’t it!”

Some of my followers - many for Scottish Independence - retweeted it. Got some ‘lols’. 

Within 12 hrs it had been retweeted thousands of times by Left, Middle and Right. Including, to my horror, some official members of UKIP!
Point is this - my ‘joke’ took on a life of its own. People were literally reading into it what they wanted to read into it. Pro-Independence saw it as a positive homage, and some saw it as an anti Scots slogan.
I was getting all sorts of followers that I wouldn’t want to be in the same room with.
Consequently I left Twitter.
Sorry for the anecdote, but bears some relevance maybe.

ennspek

Godwin's in 10....

WiresDreamDisasters

I love anti-Scots slogans!! Following.