I'm too fat - help !

Drew_TNBD

VimFuego said:

read back through the thread, there have been some extremely judgemental comments, there has also been an awful lot of really good advice.

7 Pages!! Are you mad!?!

mike_l

From prvious form, Mr Vuego might be....

 

I find during the week I snack as breakfast - lunch is usually around 6 hrs, and lunch to tea is roughly the same.

I've taken to having jelly instead of crisps etc. I got some little tubs which take around 1/3rd of a jelly (approx 30 cals) and have that instead of something less filling and higher in calories (without looking 250 cals?). Hence mid-morning and mid-afternoon snacks done and not much in the way of calories.

frankus

octatonic said:

There has to be a point where you take yourself aside and say 'enough is enough'.

Emp is doing that but then in the next breath he is letting himself off and saying 'I can't'.

Anyone who had a shit childhood is probably very familiar with the idea of a parent who believes repeatedly expressing their exasperation is somehow magically going to provide all the reassurance and information their child is missing without them getting involved in the act of parenting. It doesn't work.

A nurturing parent would say "well, what are you having trouble with?" ... or "what if we did this bit together, then you do the rest?"

Ultimately weakness is made of weakness and we can only surrender to doubt if we choose to be weak too, which we're not by nature - but the truth of that (internalised and not intellectualised) has to be learned FIRST. The first lesson is to find success and know what it feels like and how to capitalise it... otherwise you're starting from very shaky foundations.

That is what he needs to drop- it can be done and he won't succeed until he does it.

If you're saying he should drop the "enough is enough" and "I can't" - we're singing off the same sheet - but it's hard to tell from what you've written.

VimFuego

I like that idea of finding success, learn how that feels then replicating it. Not many people enjoy exercise for the sake of it, but people enjoy running, swimming, cycling, martial arts, football or whatever it may be. These activities are not exercising, they are fun activities that may also be getting you fit and healthy as you are doing them. It's like playing scales compared to playing music. Everyone enjoys playing music and can do it all day long, it's much harder to play scales all day long. Obviously, the trick for emp is to find something he enjoys that will also provide benefits that can be done in his schedule and lifestyle (pretty sure dragging mud filled boats from a welsh estuary don't count).

Food I think it easier, most people like burger and chips, try to find something that replicates the pleasure you get from those but isn't full of the shit. I like what P90 wrote, it's a small and achievable step that rewards with success and that can be built on.

frankus

I agree with that wholeheartedly - it's about moving towards something better in all aspects of life.

octatonic

frankus said:

octatonic said:That is what he needs to drop- it can be done and he won't succeed until he does it.

If you're saying he should drop the "enough is enough" and "I can't" - we're singing off the same sheet - but it's hard to tell from what you've written.

What I'd saying is he needs to say enough is enough about the old behaviour and start introducing some news ones.

He needs to stop saying he can't do it and start believing he can, then doing it.

People say 'they can't' for a lot of reasons- sometimes they don't want to, sometimes they haven't realised that you can't get the results without the work and sometimes it is something more fundamental- childhood issues, learned behaviours etc.

We can only present so much information to him and ultimately we are not responsible for his choices.

If he is, for whatever reason, unable to do this then there is something more fundamental at play that none of us are really qualified to address- he should contact someone trained to deal with that issue.

Edit: further to this- just to give an idea of why I think that- I attended a half dozen sessions with a psychologist about similar issues a few years ago now.

We talked about a lot of stuff, not just food & fitness issues.

What I took away from it essentially boiled down to a few things.

The universe doesn't owe me anything, I can do anything I put my mind to but I have to do it, not sit around moaning about how unfair life it and to stop playing the victim.

Nothing earthshaking but actually I needed someone who wasn't related to me to speak plainly about things.

YMMV.

frankus

I've been screamed at by PT instructors and that's a different thing all together - when the sympathetic nervous system is in full swing, the brain is not great at making decisions and "beasting" someone is helpful, at that point parts of the brain are not working but at other times, when someone can rationalise and evaluate other people's behaviour, it requires a different type of coaching.

When encouragign the rational mind I'd expect specific, measurable and realistic goals to be set with a realistic time to be completed by. We could be helping Emp come up with a first target to reach - it could be fun and he could have a laugh reporting back to us.

We could help set him up to succeed or bombard him with information and get ready to thow our hands up and say "well I tried". I'd rather help him because some day I might need his help.

octatonic

frankus said:

We could help set him up to succeed or bombard him with information and get ready to thow our hands up and say "well I tried". I'd rather help him because some day I might need his help.

Sure, but you cannot do the work for him and you're not really qualified to address psychological issues.

Neither am I.

As well meaning as we might be with the attempt to help there is a real risk of actually making things worse.

I'm not having a go at you- I admire your intention to want to help and I wish to do the same, as much as I can.

There is a point though where we run out of skill.

All the hugs and puppies in the world won't get the weight off him.

If there is a mental block preventing him from doing the work then we can listen, we can continue to be a friend- but you/we may not be able to address the issue.

You might get lucky- but honestly a brief period of psychological treatment is probably far better. 

p90fool

VimFuego said:

read back through the thread, there have been some extremely judgemental comments, there has also been an awful lot of really good advice.

There has been some good advice on this thread, some harsh truths and some sympathetic suggestions based on our own experiences.

I don't think anyone's been particularly judgemental, that implies a dismissiveness and lack of empathy I haven't noticed anyway, more a bunch of mates saying "wake up man, look what you're doing to yourself"

frankus

octatonic said:

Edit: further to this- just to give an idea of why I think that- I attended a half dozen sessions with a psychologist about similar issues a few years ago now.

We talked about a lot of stuff, not just food & fitness issues.

What I took away from it essentially boiled down to a few things.

The universe doesn't owe me anything, I can do anything I put my mind to but I have to do it, not sit around moaning about how unfair life it and to stop playing the victim.

Nothing earthshaking but actually I needed someone who wasn't related to me to speak plainly about things.

YMMV.

I've been seeing a counsellor and then life-coach for about 6 years. I really recommend it, anyone who snorts at that, well - I'm earning around £30k more a year and when I started I was one of the highest paid in my field... it has practical applications and the personal improvements are more valuable. 

You're using shaming words about your past actions - I have a suspicion you got a psychoanalyst as they've basically done a S.U.M.O (shut up and move on) - which is a cuntish thing to do and they ar (by and large) cunts. The only test ever permitted using psychoanalysts against a placebo - saw the placebo improve more people's mental health.

Clarky

the hardest part about changing your lifestyle is actually changing it..

once you've settled in, then it's easy, normal and just a regular part of your life...

Vim - I can't say I've noticed anything really judgemental in all of this... although the truths of being fat, being treated like a fat guy etc are all pretty harsh.. I know cos I've been fat for most of my life... but the most harsh truth of all is giving enough of a crap to actually do something about it.. and that's what most fat people don't do.. it's like fat people have conditioned themselves to just settle for it and so there's always an excuse.. 'yeah I'll start on Monday.... ahh.. can't then cos.. erm that thing.. ok then.. next Monday".. 'but I just have no will power'.. 'I just can't cos..." and the best one... 'my other half loves me just the way I am..' which is awesome... thing is.. ya get used to being fat.. it is normal to you.. things have to get pretty bad until you think there's something wrong / needs sorting out.. that realisation is like running into a brick wall [well it was for me..].. that's when you need to get almost angry at it.. no, I'm not going to carry on like this.. I'm going to opt out of 95% of everything sold in a big supermarket [that makes them and the food manufacturers hugely wealthy... whilst you're essentially hooked on their bullshit and being kept nice and huge]..

however... people that actually do something about this and manage to sort themselves out I have a very deep respect for..

cos it's a very long journey.. but jeez it's an amazing one.. it's like being liberated..

Clarky

 

VimFuego said:

I like that idea of finding success, learn how that feels then replicating it. Not many people enjoy exercise for the sake of it, but people enjoy running, swimming, cycling, martial arts, football or whatever it may be. These activities are not exercising, they are fun activities that may also be getting you fit and healthy as you are doing them. It's like playing scales compared to playing music. Everyone enjoys playing music and can do it all day long, it's much harder to play scales all day long. Obviously, the trick for emp is to find something he enjoys that will also provide benefits that can be done in his schedule and lifestyle (pretty sure dragging mud filled boats from a welsh estuary don't count).

Food I think it easier, most people like burger and chips, try to find something that replicates the pleasure you get from those but isn't full of the shit. I like what P90 wrote, it's a small and achievable step that rewards with success and that can be built on.

there are other activites too that'd require you to to get out and about...

for example, photography... like photgraphing wildlife / landscapes.. you're essentially hiking with a camera..

or some other hobby... has anyone here took a walk around Dover Castle?? the place is just amazing.. but all them steps getting up onto the battlements.. take a good hike around there and it'll get the heart rate up.. plus that place is just an amazing day out..

so maybe do something that is not strictly speaking gym / fitness / sport related.. but it will get you out and about regularly..

octatonic

frankus said:

You're using shaming words about your past actions - I have a suspicion you got a psychoanalyst as they've basically done a S.U.M.O (shut up and move on) - which is a cuntish thing to do and they ar (by and large) cunts. The only test ever permitted using psychoanalysts against a placebo - saw the placebo improve more people's mental health.

This isn't about me, but to address your points- no, I don't feel ashamed of anything in my past, and using a word doesn't mean I'm attaching an emotion to it.

Playing the victim is exactly what I was doing at the time.

I was a different person then and I was, actually, sitting around moaning about things saying 'why me', and being ungrateful for the hand I've been given when actually I am extremely lucky.

There were reasons for it at the time though.

This isn't a case of shut up and move on, but rather 'I'm choosing to cease the negative and unhelpful reactions to past events, because I'm making a choice to leave the past in the past'.

We are all damaged in some way, but part of dealing with it, is accepting what happened and the previous coping mechanisms, but making a definite, cast iron choice to not play out the old script over and over.

Anyway, we're going off topic. Or are we?

frankus

octatonic said:

frankus said:

We could help set him up to succeed or bombard him with information and get ready to thow our hands up and say "well I tried". I'd rather help him because some day I might need his help.

Sure, but you cannot do the work for him and you're not really qualified to address psychological issues.

Neither am I.

ow that sucks. did someone tell you that psychology was some ju-ju black art only shamans could perfom?

We are able to support and encourage someone and guess what that is? It's helping people to ADDRESS THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES.

As well meaning as we might be with the attempt to help there is a real risk of actually making things worse.

I'm not having a go at you- I admire your intention to want to help and I wish to do the same, as much as I can.

There is a point though where we run out of skill.

Oh man, someone did a number on you and you did not get your money's worth.

All the hugs and puppies in the world won't get the weight off him.

evidence for that?

If there is a mental block preventing him from doing the work then we can listen, we can continue to be a friend- but you/we may not be able to address the issue.

Any psychologist taking credit for fixing anyone is basically deluded. People fix themselves, they can be given tools to understand themselves and all the support and encouragement they need to explore and uncover.

Anyone can do that, it just takes tolerance.

You might get lucky- but honestly a brief period of psychological treatment is probably far better. 

The right support works, I don't think there's anything wrong with Emp that needs psychological "treatment" he's a dude who wants to fit in a smaller pair of pants ffs!!

octatonic

Frankus, 

If you're going to make things personal I'm not going to discuss it.

No one did a number on me- I'm absolutely fine.

Cheers.

frankus

octatonic said:

frankus said:

You're using shaming words about your past actions - I have a suspicion you got a psychoanalyst as they've basically done a S.U.M.O (shut up and move on) - which is a cuntish thing to do and they ar (by and large) cunts. The only test ever permitted using psychoanalysts against a placebo - saw the placebo improve more people's mental health.

This isn't about me, but to address your points- no, I don't feel ashamed of anything in my past, and using a word doesn't mean I'm attaching an emotion to it.

Playing the victim is exactly what I was doing at the time.

I was a different person then and I was, actually, sitting around moaning about things saying 'why me', and being ungrateful for the hand I've been given when actually I am extremely lucky.

There were reasons for it at the time though.

This isn't a case of shut up and move on, but rather 'I'm choosing to cease the negative and unhelpful reactions to past events, because I'm making a choice to leave the past in the past'.

We are all damaged in some way, but part of dealing with it, is accepting what happened and the previous coping mechanisms, but making a definite, cast iron choice to not play out the old script over and over.

Anyway, we're going off topic. Or are we?

Our dudes are emerging It's on topic.

Okay, put like that it sounds more positive.

Being the victim is easy as there's no worry about having done the wrong thing. What freaked me out was finding that even when in the victim role, I was persecuting others ... I just obsessed on being a victim to the extent I didn't see the effect I was having on others.

I spent time doing a type of therapy called reclaiming childhood... it was really worth it as when you look at all the people in the world who're doing what they love - they've all got a childlike enthusiasm - it never left them, it's a bit like Voldemort having all those Horcruxes in Harry Potter finding the crisis points in childhood and recovering the parts of the psyche lost then usually summed up in injunctions from significant people "smoking is more important than you are", "you can never be strong" what's called the parental tapes.. it works I reckon it probably increases intelligence too.

I think Emp doesn't need probing, reading between the lines he's got a pretty good idea of himself and confirms it every so often by trolling here. To that end I think we can cheer him on, Holn seemed to get stuff done with his post - I really admire the work he's put into getting back on his feet, we've got room for another success story.

Drew_TNBD

It just seems to me that Emp started this thread in a moment of clarity. And now he's kinda retreating a little bit and not really facing up to the issues at hand. That isn't something anyone can force him to do, try as we might.

I would've thought a heart-attack would've been the kick up the arse someone needs. But that's because I lost my father to his first heart attack, so I have significant emotional issues when it comes to them. I can accept that. Maybe for other people it's just like a serious bout of flu or something, and once they bounce back it leaves their mind.

frankus

thing is noone really changes without a reason and the reasons need to be as big as the sense of displacement...


so... make smaller changes and make changing slightly part of your routine and the sense of displacement isn't overwhelming.


if I were in Emps place being told to do a triathlon, drink my own jizz - I'd be thinking... "errr hang on, maybe I'm okay as I am"

at that point, we've let him down

octatonic

frankus said:

octatonic said:

Our dudes are emerging It's on topic.

Okay, put like that it sounds more positive.

Being the victim is easy as there's no worry about having done the wrong thing. What freaked me out was finding that even when in the victim role, I was persecuting others ... I just obsessed on being a victim to the extent I didn't see the effect I was having on others.

I spent time doing a type of therapy called reclaiming childhood... it was really worth it as when you look at all the people in the world who're doing what they love - they've all got a childlike enthusiasm - it never left them, it's a bit like Voldemort having all those Horcruxes in Harry Potter finding the crisis points in childhood and recovering the parts of the psyche lost then usually summed up in injunctions from significant people "smoking is more important than you are", "you can never be strong" what's called the parental tapes.. it works I reckon it probably increases intelligence too.

I think Emp doesn't need probing, reading between the lines he's got a pretty good idea of himself and confirms it every so often by trolling here. To that end I think we can cheer him on, Holn seemed to get stuff done with his post - I really admire the work he's put into getting back on his feet, we've got room for another success story.

I actually didn't definitely say he did.

What I said was if we present the information to him and he finds himself unable to put it into action then there will reach a point where chatting infrequently to people on the internet will cease to be an effective strategy for getting over that hump.

Until he gets over/under/around the 'I can't do it' negative self talk it will be much more difficult.

You said he just wanted to fit into a smaller pair of pants- well, sure he does- but also he has spent a significant amount of time in this thread listing the reasons why he cannot do it.

I don't know if he needs therapy or not.

He might, he might not- I don't know.

In terms of being qualified- I'm not saying that psychology is a black art- it is actually fairly simple, but like a lot of simple things it takes a bit of skill to present the right things to a person at the right time.

Sure, there are some trained psychologists who are terrible at doing this and there are probably some people who are untrained who are great at it.

Odds are though that someone who has trained for a few years in an area is more likely to be better than someone who isn't.

octatonic

frankus said:

thing is noone really changes without a reason and the reasons need to be as big as the sense of displacement...


so... make smaller changes and make changing slightly part of your routine and the sense of displacement isn't overwhelming.


if I were in Emps place being told to do a triathlon, drink my own jizz - I'd be thinking... "errr hang on, maybe I'm okay as I am"

at that point, we've let him down

No one has said that though- unless I missed a few posts.

I believe I explicitly stated making smaller changes permanent is more effective than making large, unsustainable changes, so agreed.