Murphy Labs finish defects

HandwrittenHero

Philly_Q said:

chris78 said:

I’ve just read that article too. I’ve read it as Gibson trying to shift the blame to their customers for their finishing defects.
In my experience of nitro, opening a case too soon can lead to checking, but I’m yet to see paint drop off as a result.

Agreed.  He may have a point about letting guitars acclimatise after a big temperature change, but if you fail to do so the paintwork shouldn't end up looking like an old beach hut after a particularly harsh winter.

That’s why my point about it being a half truth…I’m usually a lot more willing to give the benefit of the doubt but even I’m sick of how Gibson are acting recently. If they pivot towards using this as an excuse to not honour warranty I hope someone actually holds their feet to the fire properly.

ICBM

HandwrittenHero said:

Yep, struck me as muddying the waters with a half truth.

Two can play that game though. Apparently the ML finish is so temperature sensitive Gibson are saying you shouldn't open the case unless they've had at least 5 hours to adjust to temperature. So I'd say they're only good as ornaments, they won't stand up to the rigour of gigging or taking out to a jam.

Load of bollocks. The originals didn’t suffer from it. They certainly can and do check when the temperature changes suddenly, but the finish doesn’t fall off because the body was covered with dye or filler - or whatever they’re blaming it on - and not cleaned off properly before the finish was done. Most of those old guitars were used by musicians and not treated with any special care, and don’t look like that mess in the pics here.

Musicman20

What a crock of crap. 

RaymondLin

Complete BS, everyone else can do nitro just fine.

Neil

RaymondLin said:

Complete BS, everyone else can do nitro just fine.

Apart from Fender. 

Many of their AVRI's have finishes that have worn away/peeled off without too much effort on behalf of the player. 

GoldenEraGuitars

This is a post by Tracy Farmer on Instagram.

https://i.imgur.com/s8pXq4r.jpg

Nitro and cellulose paints and lacquers are brittle and will rub or flake off with general use. 

But Gibson blaming their customers for not acclimatising their new purchases properly is poor form. Unfortunately it’s par for the course with them, should we have expected them to say anything different about the situation?

Neil

Yes, that's what I mean about Fender nitro falling off. 

I know nitro cellulose is certainly not as bullet proof as poly but conversely neither of my Gibsons ( 2004 & 2009) have any paint wear and they get plenty of playing.

Not making excuses for the ML stuff though. Obviously a finish made to "relic" quickly that has backfired. 

HandwrittenHero

Sort of in line, my AV54 strat does have some flaked finish. But it’s largely where it’s taken knocks or such eg a small chip out from a dropped screwdriver while removing backplate. I do have weather checking but having lost finish yet along those crack lines, whereas what looks to be described with the ML is people bought them with checking in and within a period of time they saw a kind of blister effect and the checks became cracks and then flaked showing a powdery residue under.

point of correction though - it’s the AV aka pure vintage line of Fender that ran 2012-2017 that had the overly delicate finish like my strat here. Not aware of the AVRI line being as sensitive (believe difference is down to poly undercoat or not but not 100%)

GoldenEraGuitars

Neil said:

Yes, that's what I mean about Fender nitro falling off. 

I know nitro cellulose is certainly not as bullet proof as poly but conversely neither of my Gibsons ( 2004 & 2009) have any paint wear and they get plenty of playing.

Not making excuses for the ML stuff though. Obviously a finish made to "relic" quickly that has backfired. 

Modern formulas are full of plasticiser. So they’re not as brittle. It appears these ML models may have gone too far the other way and now they’re too brittle. Once air and moisture has a way under a finish crack it’s usually the start of the delamination process 

HandwrittenHero

Again, that makes a lot of sense to what’s happening re air/moisture with the greyish blisters breaking out before it then delaminates - I would assume the blisters are air/moisture that are getting in, collecting where there isn’t solid adhesion and weakening further into the finish fails

Philly_Q

HandwrittenHero said:

Again, that makes a lot of sense to what’s happening re air/moisture with the greyish blisters breaking out before it then delaminates - I would assume the blisters are air/moisture that are getting in, collecting where there isn’t solid adhesion and weakening further into the finish fails

To be fair/generous to Gibson, they're not alone in having finish issues and it's not only nitro finishes which can have problems. 

Even PRS have screwed up in the past - my 2013 S2 Mira has exactly the kind of greyish/cloudy patches you described under parts of the finish.  None of it has actually blistered or flaked away, but I assume it could happen eventually.

WezV

Apparently Gibson have just replaced some of the ones sent back for repair
https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/murphy-lab-finish-repair-not.458102/#post-9965504

guitars4you

In many ways, the manufactures will have to respond to negative issues that arise weeks/months/years after the goods are sold - I wonder how many warranty complaints Fender will have received in the 50's regarding lacquer checking - Slightly off topic, but they received many complaints about warping scratchplates, hence the single ply 8 hole morphed to 3 ply 11 hole - But it is how the manufactures accept, respond, change to such issues that adds credibility to the brand - Fender certainly made changes to the finish during the pre-CBS era, for various reasons, be it to attend to issues or 'quick production' methods

It was acceptable that Rickenbacker + Gibson would know a white finish would turn custard cream and somehow recall they had a note in the case about this - Certainly recall Gibson having a note about certain stands would mark a nitro finish - As such 'don't blame us' as we give advance info - And that is fine 

I assume Gibson had no/few complaints that a 58/59/60 burst finish was fading 

But I think Gibson appear to have a problem with the ML finish - From what I've read, I think they appear to be taking a 'don't blame us' approach which can't be doing any favours for the dealers out there with the stock they have on the wall - I hope/assume that back at base that they are looking into this regarding new stock currently in production - I don't have a problem with fade, checking, wear, but delamination is a fault, be it on a shiny new gloss finish or aged finish 

As far as the 5 hour acclimatization goes, is this an issue for any such guitar a few months after sale - If so then what happens when I gig in the winter - Guitar leaves my warm home - Travels in the car ( I used the back seat not boot in the past) then gets to a cold venue - Do I have to get there 5 hours before the gig, so the guitar will acclimatize 

HandwrittenHero

Philly_Q said:

HandwrittenHero said:

Again, that makes a lot of sense to what’s happening re air/moisture with the greyish blisters breaking out before it then delaminates - I would assume the blisters are air/moisture that are getting in, collecting where there isn’t solid adhesion and weakening further into the finish fails

To be fair/generous to Gibson, they're not alone in having finish issues and it's not only nitro finishes which can have problems. 

Even PRS have screwed up in the past - my 2013 S2 Mira has exactly the kind of greyish/cloudy patches you described under parts of the finish.  None of it has actually blistered or flaked away, but I assume it could happen eventually.

Yeah, that’s a part of it. Should it have been caught with better R&D when the selling point of the line is actually the finish. I’d argue yes. But even the. It’s how you manage the aftermath. Which has been a bit more uniquely Gibson. Have you ever contacted PRS re your finish?

WezV said:

Apparently Gibson have just replaced some of the ones sent back for repair
https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/murphy-lab-finish-repair-not.458102/#post-9965504

Aware this is what warranty says, but would’ve thought they’d have given a bit more consideration to the idea of picking out “the one”. I mean, it looks like they didn’t even ask if there’s anything the customer, sorry fan, would prefer out of the replacement ie as close to looking like the old one or was there some compromise you made based on availability. Small things that look like you give a toss.

WezV

HandwrittenHero said:

WezV said:

Apparently Gibson have just replaced some of the ones sent back for repair
https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/murphy-lab-finish-repair-not.458102/#post-9965504

Aware this is what warranty says, but would’ve thought they’d have given a bit more consideration to the idea of picking out “the one”. I mean, it looks like they didn’t even ask if there’s anything the customer, sorry fan, would prefer out of the replacement ie as close to looking like the old one or was there some compromise you made based on availability. Small things that look like you give a toss.

I don't think its unreasonable that they gave a replacement rather than doing a refinish, but it should have been absolutely clear that was what was happening... preferably with some choice

HandwrittenHero

guitars4you said:

I hope/assume that back at base that they are looking into this regarding new stock currently in production - I don't have a problem with fade, checking, wear, but delamination is a fault, be it on a shiny new gloss finish or aged finish 

As far as the 5 hour acclimatization goes, is this an issue for any such guitar a few months after sale - If so then what happens when I gig in the winter - Guitar leaves my warm home - Travels in the car ( I used the back seat not boot in the past) then gets to a cold venue - Do I have to get there 5 hours before the gig, so the guitar will acclimatize 

The suggestion is yes they’ve fixed it going forward, but obviously nothing stated.

Exactly my point with the 5 hour nonsense. If they want it that way then that’s precisely why they’re unfit to leave a controlled environment. Hang them on your wall only.

terada

Replaced an 8lb 6 with an 8lb 12 too. 

If I’d found a guitar I’d really bonded with, I’d want it refinished not another guitar that would feel and sound different. Then again the refinish could change that too so I’d be wanting a refund. 

Surely they should know better than anyone that buyers of historic line gibson guitars are fussy over which particular guitar is right for them. 

Nick13

Obviously coming into this late on in the discussion but it always struck me that there were too many Murphy guitars immediately in circulation for them to have spent the right amount of time on them to go through a sped up aging process correctly.

They are literally everywhere with every major retailer.  So I was always a bit suspicious about how they could turn so many of these out but retailers literally could not give you a timescale for a normal CS gibson.

HandwrittenHero

I don’t think the stock level was necessarily a clue. They announced them a year before so that’s time to build ready for launch and obviously you’d want to have plenty to sell when hype is strongest.

Philly_Q

HandwrittenHero said:

Philly_Q said:

HandwrittenHero said:

Again, that makes a lot of sense to what’s happening re air/moisture with the greyish blisters breaking out before it then delaminates - I would assume the blisters are air/moisture that are getting in, collecting where there isn’t solid adhesion and weakening further into the finish fails

To be fair/generous to Gibson, they're not alone in having finish issues and it's not only nitro finishes which can have problems. 

Even PRS have screwed up in the past - my 2013 S2 Mira has exactly the kind of greyish/cloudy patches you described under parts of the finish.  None of it has actually blistered or flaked away, but I assume it could happen eventually.

Yeah, that’s a part of it. Should it have been caught with better R&D when the selling point of the line is actually the finish. I’d argue yes. But even the. It’s how you manage the aftermath. Which has been a bit more uniquely Gibson. Have you ever contacted PRS re your finish?

I looked into it not long ago, but there was a report that PRS were no longer doing warranty repairs (on these finishes) for European customers, or something.  If it had been a case of sending it back to the States (not that that was an option) I think that would've been too much hassle.  If it ever does start falling off in chunks I'll get someone good to strip it and refinish in nitro, I guess.