e-scooter crash

crunchman

Sesh said:

Cyclists using a road when there is safe well appointed cycle lane running parallel to the road should be made to listen to Cilla Black records. 

If there is a safe well appointed cycle lane, the cyclists wouldn't be on the road.

I cycled somewhere last week where I used the "cycle lane" alongside the North Circular between Chiswick and Ealing.  There were all kinds of breaks in the cycle lane for driveways, side roads and bus stops - up and down the kerb, kinks in it etc.  The surface was horribly uneven and I felt like I was getting shaken to bits.

On the way home I just used the main carriageway, and not just because of the inconvenience of the cycle lane.  I honestly think that I was safer.  That stretch is downhill going South, and I was doing at least 20mph, probably somewhere around 25mph.  There is no way that lane is safe at that speed, especially with the risk of pedestrians walking into it.

I would not say any of the cycle lanes around here are well appointed, and in a lot of places, they don't even qualify as safe.  If you can maintain a speed of 15mph, then I believe you are genuinely safer on the road - even more so when it's cold in the winter, as the road gets gritted but there can still be ice in the "cycle lane".

A lot of drivers moan about cyclists not using the "cycle lanes" but they have no idea of the reality of how bad most of those lanes are.  If there is a good lane, it will get used.

Haych

crunchman said:

Sesh said:

Cyclists using a road when there is safe well appointed cycle lane running parallel to the road should be made to listen to Cilla Black records. 

If there is a safe well appointed cycle lane, the cyclists wouldn't be on the road.

I cycled somewhere last week where I used the "cycle lane" alongside the North Circular between Chiswick and Ealing.  There were all kinds of breaks in the cycle lane for driveways, side roads and bus stops - up and down the kerb, kinks in it etc.  The surface was horribly uneven and I felt like I was getting shaken to bits.

On the way home I just used the main carriageway, and not just because of the inconvenience of the cycle lane.  I honestly think that I was safer.  That stretch is downhill going South, and I was doing at least 20mph, probably somewhere around 25mph.  There is no way that lane is safe at that speed, especially with the risk of pedestrians walking into it.

I would not say any of the cycle lanes around here are well appointed, and in a lot of places, they don't even qualify as safe.  If you can maintain a speed of 15mph, then I believe you are genuinely safer on the road - even more so when it's cold in the winter, as the road gets gritted but there can still be ice in the "cycle lane".

A lot of drivers moan about cyclists not using the "cycle lanes" but they have no idea of the reality of how bad most of those lanes are.  If there is a good lane, it will get used.

I used to be a very keen road cyclist once upon a time and can concur that the infrastructure for cyclists is woeful.  Councils will pat themselves on the back for installing a cycle lane but leave it alone without maintenance for the next two decades.

Then all the dog walkers and joggers discover it and it's over-run with pedestrian traffic.

drofluf

To add to what @crunchman said I avoid cycle lanes also because of the broken glass, random pieces of street furniture and wayward pedestrians lurching into my path. 

DefaultM

crunchman said:

DefaultM said:

Reading this thread made youtube think I want an e-scooter. Constant adverts and suggestions. Same a bit ago with the pizza oven thread.

What browser are you using?

The app on iphone. It's clearly listening to me as well, as the other day my wife said we needed something and a few hours later I was getting adverts for it without me ever actually googling it or anything.

crunchman

DefaultM said:

crunchman said:

DefaultM said:

Reading this thread made youtube think I want an e-scooter. Constant adverts and suggestions. Same a bit ago with the pizza oven thread.

What browser are you using?

The app on iphone. It's clearly listening to me as well, as the other day my wife said we needed something and a few hours later I was getting adverts for it without me ever actually googling it or anything.

Might be worth putting Firefox on.  I think it's better on privacy than the other major browsers.  I'm using Firefox on my phone instead of the default Chrome.  You should be able to add an ad-blocker to Firefox as well.

RobDavies

Wait until we get hoverboards, Marty.   Carnage.  

Grangousier

If there is a safe well appointed cycle lane, the cyclists wouldn't be on the road.

This is kind of not true... I live near the Cycle Superhighway on Blackfriars Road, SE1, which must be among the best appointed cycle lanes in the country - long and straight, separated from the motorised vehicles by a strip of pavement, completed recently enough that the tarmac is flat and unblemished. And people still basically do what they want - a lot of them use the cycle lanes, but the ones that feel like it ride in with the cars, or on the pavement. It depends on what's most convenient for them - if it's more convenient to zip along on the pavement on the other side of the road from where the cycle lane is, they'll do that. Or weave between the cars like they do everywhere else, if they feel it's quicker for them. 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be well-built cycle lanes, there definitely should, but there is something in the culture (or cultures, as we're not talking about a single homogenous group "cyclists", but a number of different groups of people with quite different expectations and assumptions) that will require some kind of explicit regulation at some point - there needs to be not just an incentive to use cycle lanes but a disincentive against not using them. Which will be very unpopular with everybody, I think, but that wouldn't make it unnecessary. 

Greatape

The problems occur where modes of transport intersect, right? Councils putting up a sign declaring that a path is now also a bike path (side note: rarely swept/maintained so punctures aplenty) is a very poor substitute for proper segregation. 

Roads: cars

Pavement: Shank's pony

Bike path: everything else. 

I appreciate this might be difficult and costly in some places, but it would be a worthwhile investment, especially at a time when govt wants more cycling (presumably). Certainly a better use of 'transport money: than HS2.

crunchman

Grangousier said:

If there is a safe well appointed cycle lane, the cyclists wouldn't be on the road.

This is kind of not true... I live near the Cycle Superhighway on Blackfriars Road, SE1, which must be among the best appointed cycle lanes in the country - long and straight, separated from the motorised vehicles by a strip of pavement, completed recently enough that the tarmac is flat and unblemished. And people still basically do what they want - a lot of them use the cycle lanes, but the ones that feel like it ride in with the cars, or on the pavement. It depends on what's most convenient for them - if it's more convenient to zip along on the pavement on the other side of the road from where the cycle lane is, they'll do that. Or weave between the cars like they do everywhere else, if they feel it's quicker for them. 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be well-built cycle lanes, there definitely should, but there is something in the culture (or cultures, as we're not talking about a single homogenous group "cyclists", but a number of different groups of people with quite different expectations and assumptions) that will require some kind of explicit regulation at some point - there needs to be not just an incentive to use cycle lanes but a disincentive against not using them. Which will be very unpopular with everybody, I think, but that wouldn't make it unnecessary. 

That Blackfriars lane isn't as good as you think.  I've ridden it.

The light phasing coming up from the Embankment lane is about as bad as it is possible to make it.  If you time those wrong, you have to wait a very long time.  You could be over Blackfriars Bridge and somewhere around Southwark Station in the time you have to wait.

You also get a lot of pedestrians walking into it without looking.

merlin

Did they catch the perp yet, has he come forward?

merlin

hollywoodrox said:

Disability scooter death , one pensioner killed by another on disability scooter.

Sesh

crunchman said:

Sesh said:

Cyclists using a road when there is safe well appointed cycle lane running parallel to the road should be made to listen to Cilla Black records. 

If there is a safe well appointed cycle lane, the cyclists wouldn't be on the road.

I cycled somewhere last week where I used the "cycle lane" alongside the North Circular between Chiswick and Ealing.  There were all kinds of breaks in the cycle lane for driveways, side roads and bus stops - up and down the kerb, kinks in it etc.  The surface was horribly uneven and I felt like I was getting shaken to bits.

On the way home I just used the main carriageway, and not just because of the inconvenience of the cycle lane.  I honestly think that I was safer.  That stretch is downhill going South, and I was doing at least 20mph, probably somewhere around 25mph.  There is no way that lane is safe at that speed, especially with the risk of pedestrians walking into it.

I would not say any of the cycle lanes around here are well appointed, and in a lot of places, they don't even qualify as safe.  If you can maintain a speed of 15mph, then I believe you are genuinely safer on the road - even more so when it's cold in the winter, as the road gets gritted but there can still be ice in the "cycle lane".

A lot of drivers moan about cyclists not using the "cycle lanes" but they have no idea of the reality of how bad most of those lanes are.  If there is a good lane, it will get used.

This is fair, which why I said safe and well appointed, meaning fit for purpose. What you describe above isn't. I have in mind a road near me that goes from 30mph to national speed limits with a decent parallel cycle path. It's madness some people don't use it.
If it was on my route I would, but my 3 mile cycle to work only has one stretch of cycle lane about 1/2 mile long at best. I would love more but there is no way it could happen given the way the roads are. 

euan

In a town near Glasgow there was a segregated cycle lane put in along a busy road much to displeasure to some local residence and the local paper. It was meant to be a two part build but after all the noise the second part wasn't built making it pretty unpractical in places to use. Then additionally day to day you often have cars parked blocking the entrances to the actual lane so you're incapable of riding in it for large sections of the road which you get abuse for not riding in the lane.

I stopped going anywhere near it after getting abuse from two grey haired ladies out for a Sunday drive to the shops which when I after refused to engage tried to force me off the road.

Blaendulais

Haych said:

hollywoodrox said:

crunchman said:

Another crash:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/twickenham-escooter-death-man-named-b947264.html

The thing is , you are looking for them now. Like if you bought a certain type of car ,you would notice them more.  Lots more people are killed and seriously injured by cars every day . Ban them from towns etc 

There are many, many times the number of cars than e-scooters.  If the numbers were equivalent the accident rate, I reckon, would be far higher than cars.

but it isnt. Cars mass gives them massively greater potential for injury. Bones shatter at 5 mph from a car due to its momentum. A scotter at 5 mph will not cause the same. Focussing on car safety, far above what we do know, is going to yield far better population benefits than whining about poxy e scooters

Blaendulais

Accident rate may be similar but the 2 ton difference in weight would cause so much milder injuries

chillidoggy

My uncle used to have a Lambretta Vespa scooter. He was always falling off it, the small wheels being the normal cause, he said.

Try using one where I live, and the even smaller wheels will be down a pothole or rut, the scooter will stop dead, and have you over the handlebars in a nano second. No helmet? Say hello to your new head injury.

Haych

It only takes a teaspoon of water to drown.  

A cars mass might give it greater potential for injury, but cars are heavily regulated with things like tax, insurance, mot etc being needed to put them on the road.

Generally pedestrian traffic is separated from vehicular traffic, too.  The two aren't often thrown into the same space.

Bouncing your skull off the pavement after a 5mph off from an e-scooter could easily result in severe injury or even death.  Even wearing a helmet is no guarantee that you won't get hurt or even die.

Plus, the propensity for e-scooters to be ridden in heavily pedestrianised zones, kinda the reason this thread was started in the first place, places much higher risk to pedestrians than cars are likely to.

Plus, if you're only going to travel at 5mph then you may as well walk, I can't see too many e-scooter pilots being content with a 5mph limit, whether self inflicted or otherwise.  E-scooters flying around the place where there is a lot of unpredictable foot traffic is hardly safe on any level.

As for the weight difference, mate of mine fell off his motorbike at walking pace on approach to a roundabout.  The bike weighed about 200kgs, he had quite a severe concussion.  Weight did nothing to help him at all.

Not too long ago a child fell off a stool in McDonalds, killed him.  No weight there.

Also, I think car drivers are a different breed to any old fanny who wants to hop on an e-scooter.  The driver has presumably passed a test and had some sort of training and is aware of the hazards and implications of his machine.  There is no requirement for anyone who hops on an e-scooter to do any of that and they can whizz off without a care in the world while completely oblivious to the damage they have the potential to inflict.

Perhaps a seasoned driver in control of an e-scooter might have a different mentality, but what about a 14 year old delinquent on the way to his mate's house?  Do you think he's mature or self aware enough to put the interests of others ahead of his own?

hollywoodrox

Car drivers being a different breed is utter bollocks , after nearly 40 years on motorbikes  I have never known such an unaware , dangerous set of people ever.  The amount I had pull out in front of me every single day without looking , due to them just not caring, talking on the phone , preoccupied with a conversation with other occupant etc.  Women ,men ,old young all as bad , 

Haych

hollywoodrox said:

Car drivers being a different breed is utter bollocks , after nearly 40 years on motorbikes  I have never known such an unaware , dangerous set of people ever.  The amount I had pull out in front of me every single day without looking , due to them just not caring, talking on the phone , preoccupied with a conversation with other occupant etc.  Women ,men ,old young all as bad , 

Fair point, fella, I'll give you that one.

ICBM

Chris.B said:

On a trip to Berlin a couple of years ago, there were lots of e-scooters around the city, all being ridden (driven?) on the roads, with no apparent issues for car drivers, cyclists or pedestrians. I didn't see a scooter on the pavement during my 5 days there.

Could it be that all the problems detailed in the previous posts are not down to the e-scooters but the way that British citizens use them?

It could also be that they don't have roads that are like a tank proving ground in Germany. The condition of the roads here must be a horrific shock to anyone from northern Europe, even driving. The standard of roads I've seen in the Netherlands and Germany would be perfectly safe for an e-scooter.

euan said:

In a town near Glasgow there was a segregated cycle lane put in along a busy road much to displeasure to some local residence and the local paper. It was meant to be a two part build but after all the noise the second part wasn't built making it pretty unpractical in places to use. Then additionally day to day you often have cars parked blocking the entrances to the actual lane so you're incapable of riding in it for large sections of the road which you get abuse for not riding in the lane.

I stopped going anywhere near it after getting abuse from two grey haired ladies out for a Sunday drive to the shops which when I after refused to engage tried to force me off the road.

The ones in Edinburgh are not popular either for similar reasons. Unless that's what you mean by 'a town near Glasgow' .