The F1 thread

Fretwired

Interesting from Honda ...

https://racer.com/2018/06/23/honda-boss-open-to-alonso-indycar-move/

Cols

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

Garthy

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

So like last weekend then. 

Didn’t Cyril already say Renault were not interested in Fernando?

stickyfiddle

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

Yeah, he and Stoff looked super-chilled walking back down the pitlane. Clearly they know they're both doing a good job with a shitty car and both will move elsewhere at first opportunity. 

With Leclerc looking likely for Kimi's seat I'm guessing MB, RB and Renault will all retain their drivers. Not sure that leaves anywhere for either McLaren driver to go

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

So like last weekend then. 

Didn’t Cyril already say Renault were not interested in Fernando?

Depends if they lose Saintz.

Looks like Alonso is not staying at McLaren F1 though given his comments ... probably going to Indycar.

stickyfiddle

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

So like last weekend then. 

Didn’t Cyril already say Renault were not interested in Fernando?

Depends if they lose Saintz.

Looks like Alonso is not staying at McLaren F1 though given his comments ... probably going to Indycar.

Where is Sainz going to go? Renault is on the way up, and Ricciardo is looking less likely to leave RB, so he'd be nuts to go.

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

Yeah, he and Stoff looked super-chilled walking back down the pitlane. Clearly they know they're both doing a good job with a shitty car and both will move elsewhere at first opportunity. 

With Leclerc looking likely for Kimi's seat I'm guessing MB, RB and Renault will all retain their drivers. Not sure that leaves anywhere for either McLaren driver to go

Everything could be up in the air with Red Bull. The owner of Red Bull isn't a fan of F1 any more. He may decide to sell the team. Would Honda buy it and turn RB into a works team with sponsorship from Red Bull and Horner in charge? Could be a smart move. Will Red Bull decide to partner with Aston Martin/Cosworth on a new engine? It's clear Red Bull favour Vestappen over Ricciardo. So things may not be plain sailing at Red Bull for a few years.

McLaren make road cars so F1 is important. I'm guessing that talks with Ricciardo would include some form of guarantees over changes in personnel and building a winning car for him. Alosno would probably tell Ricciardo that he'd been promised the same.

The problem for McLaren is the engine. Renault have a works team so they will always have more 'goodies' than the teams using the Renault customer engines. Does McLaren bite the bullet and build an engine? They have the basics of one already - with simpler engine rules they could have their own powerful engine based on what's made for their road cars.

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

So like last weekend then. 

Didn’t Cyril already say Renault were not interested in Fernando?

Depends if they lose Saintz.

Looks like Alonso is not staying at McLaren F1 though given his comments ... probably going to Indycar.

Where is Sainz going to go? Renault is on the way up, and Ricciardo is looking less likely to leave RB, so he'd be nuts to go.

Saintz is an ex- Red Bull programme driver. If Ricciardo left his contract states Red Bull could request his services (source: BBC).

Fretwired

Exciting race .. worth watching for those wanting to check out the C4 highlights. Lots of action and overtaking ...

Garthy

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

Yeah, he and Stoff looked super-chilled walking back down the pitlane. Clearly they know they're both doing a good job with a shitty car and both will move elsewhere at first opportunity. 

With Leclerc looking likely for Kimi's seat I'm guessing MB, RB and Renault will all retain their drivers. Not sure that leaves anywhere for either McLaren driver to go

Everything could be up in the air with Red Bull. The owner of Red Bull isn't a fan of F1 any more. He may decide to sell the team. Would Honda buy it and turn RB into a works team with sponsorship from Red Bull and Horner in charge? Could be a smart move. Will Red Bull decide to partner with Aston Martin/Cosworth on a new engine? It's clear Red Bull favour Vestappen over Ricciardo. So things may not be plain sailing at Red Bull for a few years.

McLaren make road cars so F1 is important. I'm guessing that talks with Ricciardo would include some form of guarantees over changes in personnel and building a winning car for him. Alosno would probably tell Ricciardo that he'd been promised the same.

The problem for McLaren is the engine. Renault have a works team so they will always have more 'goodies' than the teams using the Renault customer engines. Does McLaren bite the bullet and build an engine? They have the basics of one already - with simpler engine rules they could have their own powerful engine based on what's made for their road cars.

Mclaren get the same ‘goodies’ as everyone else, it’s in the rules for a start.

Mclaren’s problems are that the same engine is hoovering up wins and podiums= they are making their own problems.

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Cols said:

When asked what what expected from Sunday, he (Alonso) said: "The same as in the last few races. A train of cars all Sunday.  Those on pole will be fastest, they will start first and run away. The second ones will start second and run away. The third ones will start third and will run away."

Doesn't sound like someone planning to stick around.

Yeah, he and Stoff looked super-chilled walking back down the pitlane. Clearly they know they're both doing a good job with a shitty car and both will move elsewhere at first opportunity. 

With Leclerc looking likely for Kimi's seat I'm guessing MB, RB and Renault will all retain their drivers. Not sure that leaves anywhere for either McLaren driver to go

Everything could be up in the air with Red Bull. The owner of Red Bull isn't a fan of F1 any more. He may decide to sell the team. Would Honda buy it and turn RB into a works team with sponsorship from Red Bull and Horner in charge? Could be a smart move. Will Red Bull decide to partner with Aston Martin/Cosworth on a new engine? It's clear Red Bull favour Vestappen over Ricciardo. So things may not be plain sailing at Red Bull for a few years.

McLaren make road cars so F1 is important. I'm guessing that talks with Ricciardo would include some form of guarantees over changes in personnel and building a winning car for him. Alosno would probably tell Ricciardo that he'd been promised the same.

The problem for McLaren is the engine. Renault have a works team so they will always have more 'goodies' than the teams using the Renault customer engines. Does McLaren bite the bullet and build an engine? They have the basics of one already - with simpler engine rules they could have their own powerful engine based on what's made for their road cars.

Mclaren get the same ‘goodies’ as everyone else, it’s in the rules for a start.

Mclaren’s problems are that the same engine is hoovering up wins and podiums= they are making their own problems.

No it isn't. For example, the Mercedes works ream have extra modes the customer teams don't get. Check out the interview with Claire Williams who points this out when talking about William's lack of performance during quali.

Garthy

Which interview?

abd yes, it’s in the technical and sporting regulations.

thumpingrug

That was a much better race to watch with a fair degree of action.  However a lot of it was Vettal and Bottas making their way back through after that start. Not sure how it would have been if they had all gotten away clean.  Oh and while Im here, Ill just about accept the pathetic 5 second penalty for Vettal taking Bottas out, but he should also have been penalised for several other taps and bangs he made or caused.   An additional drive through was warranted.  

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Which interview?

abd yes, it’s in the technical and sporting regulations.

Here's Paddy Lowe saying Williams don't have a 'party mode' .. and coming up with some BS about why he doesn't think it exits. This is why Williams is plum last ... he's an idiot.

http://www.f1i.com/news/299133-lowe-sees-mercedes-party-mode-mere-psychological-wind.html

Lewis Hamilton coined the phrase 'party mode' and this is how it works ..

https://www.racefans.net/2018/04/03/mercedes-explains-party-mode-engine-performance-settings/

Mercedes aren't breaking any rules as it is specific to their car. The customer teams have the same engine so the same race performance. Mercedes have the ability to tweak the mapping for a couple of laps in Q3 - if you watch F1 you can clearly see it in action. Ferrari can now do the same thing - again look at Ferrari's sudden boost in performance. None of the Ferrari or Mercedes customer teams have this .. their performance is consistent.

Red Bull want it banned.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-wants-ban-qualifying-party-modes-1020591/

Garthy

Which part of “it’s in the technical and sporting regulations” do you not get? 

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Which part of “it’s in the technical and sporting regulations” do you not get? 

I get all of it. Mercedes admit they have a 'party mode'. Clare Williams says Williams don't have it. Paddy Lowe says Williams don't have it. I'd guess they'd know. Perhaps it's something to do with their car. I don't know. I'm sure if they could deploy it they wouldn't be plumb last on the grid in Q3 (oh they don't get to Q3). Aren't the tech regs about race modes? Ferrari seem to have a similar thing.

Paddy Lowe:

Lowe is adamant however that Williams, as a Mercedes customer, does not enjoy the specific and timely power unit advantage, believing its regular mention is just a subtle component of the team's mind games.

"It’s interesting to wind up others to perhaps suggest there is one but there isn’t," insists the Grove-based outfit's technical director and partner. "We all get the same. I am sure of that. But it’s still worth winding up certain others.

I can't see why Hamilton would lie (the paddock is full of engineers who would see through it) and you can clearly see that in Q3 the Mercedes works team has a major advantage. Ferrari also seem to have a qualifying mode. Horner wouldn't be moaning about something that doesn't exist.

Modellista

Fretwired said:

the Mercedes works ream have extra modes the customer teams don't get.  Check out the interview with Claire Williams who points this out when talking about William's lack of performance during quali.

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Which interview?

abd yes, it’s in the technical and sporting regulations.

Here's Paddy Lowe saying Williams don't have a 'party mode' .. and coming up with some BS about why he doesn't think it exits. This is why Williams is plum last ... he's an idiot.

http://www.f1i.com/news/299133-lowe-sees-mercedes-party-mode-mere-psychological-wind.html

That interview is not with Claire Williams and it's talking about the opposite of what you said it is.  In fact it's Williams denying any secret modes.

Do you have a link to the actual interview that you mentioned in the first place?

Modellista

Every team will have a number of different modes the engine can run in.  That's commonplace even for turbocharged road cars.  The teams are completely honest about the fact that the engines have different maps they use for different purposes.  That's not news.

The specific allegation being made here is that there are secret modes that only Mercedes have.  That would be against the rules and a very serious allegation.  None of the links given support that allegation.  Perhaps Mercedes keep the best engines for themselves when they dyno them.  But they are required to be technically identical in design and operation.  That's in the rules for 2018.  Imagine the furore if they were found to be cheating.

The reason this comes up is because Mercedes is the dominant team with the Mercedes engine.  If the theory held water, Renault would be the dominant team with the Renault engine because they would know how to get more power.  Which they are not.

A very quick perusal of speed trap data indicates it's not top speeds that Mercedes are using to win - it must be the all-round package of grip, aero and power.  Bizarrely enough Hamilton was the slowest man across the finish line in France, but he won the race all the same.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2018/french-gp-192021/?st=ST

Fretwired

modellista said:

Fretwired said:

the Mercedes works ream have extra modes the customer teams don't get.  Check out the interview with Claire Williams who points this out when talking about William's lack of performance during quali.

Fretwired said:

Garthy said:

Which interview?

abd yes, it’s in the technical and sporting regulations.

Here's Paddy Lowe saying Williams don't have a 'party mode' .. and coming up with some BS about why he doesn't think it exits. This is why Williams is plum last ... he's an idiot.

http://www.f1i.com/news/299133-lowe-sees-mercedes-party-mode-mere-psychological-wind.html

That interview is not with Claire Williams and it's talking about the opposite of what you said it is.  In fact it's Williams denying any secret modes.

Do you have a link to the actual interview that you mentioned in the first place?

Did you read what I actually wrote?  I never said the interview was with Claire - that was on Sky TV.

Forget about Claire. We have Lowe.

To summarise what I wrote above:

Lowe says Williams don't have a 'party mode' and he claims it doesn't exist (see above).

Mercedes say it exists and explain how it works (see above).

Horner wants these sort of modes banned as they are a form of cheating. I'd say Red Bull's engineers are sharper than those at Williams so if they think there is a 'party mode' then there is one.

Data from Q3 would indicate that Mercedes has an extra engine mode that's worth around two tenths of a second or more depending on the track.

Fretwired

modellista said:

Every team will have a number of different modes the engine can run in.  That's commonplace even for turbocharged road cars.  The teams are completely honest about the fact that the engines have different maps they use for different purposes.  That's not news.

The specific allegation being made here is that there are secret modes that only Mercedes have.  That would be against the rules and a very serious allegation.  None of the links given support that allegation.  Perhaps Mercedes keep the best engines for themselves when they dyno them.  But they are required to be technically identical in design and operation.  That's in the rules for 2018.  Imagine the furore if they were found to be cheating.

The reason this comes up is because Mercedes is the dominant team with the Mercedes engine.  If the theory held water, Renault would be the dominant team with the Renault engine because they would know how to get more power.  Which they are not.

A very quick perusal of speed trap data indicates it's not top speeds that Mercedes are using to win - it must be the all-round package of grip, aero and power.  Bizarrely enough Hamilton was the slowest man across the finish line in France, but he won the race all the same.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/results/2018/french-gp-192021/?st=ST

In France Mercedes would have used 'party mode' to get pole (they may not have needed it with a new engine).

Once in front Hamilton did fastest laps but would have been managing the car/engine. Vestappen never threatened him. Bottas was in a wounded car. The Mercedes are often not the fastest cars in the speed traps.

Having looked at the regs all it says is teams should have access to all the modes which they may well have but may not be able to take advantage of - Mercedes 'party mode' could be something that is tuned to their car and chassis and may not work for other teams in the same way. I don't know I'm not an engineer.

However Lowe says Williams don't have it ... perhaps the FIA should check if its against the regs.

And according to Horner Williams were the team demanding the engine parity ruling. Claire Williams denies it but it wasn't all that convincing. There's friction between Mercedes and Williams. Mercedes offered technical help and Claire snapped that Williams wouldn't become a Mercedes B team. Odd statement as that's what what was suggested. Stroll's dad waded in saying Williams should get some other parts and help from Mercedes as Williams is cash strapped.