New UK made offset bridge

GavRichList

Tuffset said:

GavRichList said:

@tuffset apologies for the rather glib comment about the aesthetic. Didn’t look great quoted back. That said, to my eyes it looks too close to a TOM for me to personally like the visuals. I’m sure there’ll be many more who don’t care. Certainly seems like you’ve considered an awful lot of the issues with both the stock and particularly the Mastery. (I have a some love but mostly hate relationship with the latter) and if it turns out you’ve absolutely nailed it, I fully reserve the right to change my mind and order one with some humble pie. 

No problem at all! I genuinely mean it - it's much more useful to read unfiltered, genuine opinions than polite praise.

What I would say about the appearance: 

- The TOM-like appearance also jarred with me a bit when I saw the 2.1 (photographed) prototype in a guitar for the first time. I have since added some extra width (parallel to the string) to the design, to make it basically the same "graphic" as a vintage bridge (which is to say, if you drew around it onto the pickguard, it would be just about the same dimensions and shape). That goes for the rounded ends too.

- It's a weakness of the info displayed on the website that I don't yet have a physical prototype with the new dimensions. As a result, all pictures of the bridge *not* mounted to a guitar are renders of the production-ready "correct" dimensions (broader), but all pictures photographed on guitars are of the "old" TOM-looking dimensions. I suppose the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

- Adding the extra width has also allowed some more intonation adjustment range, 11mm in total - better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!

- I acknowledge the styling is a bit different from a normal Offset bridge, it has tall shoulders rather than the pleasing tapered "cigar" shape of the original. I've had several people asking whether it will fit a vintage bridge cover - it won't, but it's actually not impossible to do a version that will. That would have slightly shorter post tops and the shoulders would essentially be chopped off. I don't think it would look as good without the cover on, but it's subjective!

I also would like to say, that humble pie would not be necessary! It would be thanks enough that you like it enough to find a place for it, if indeed you can. It's wise to have a healthy cynicism about these things - after all there are very many other products that have popped into the marketplace recently!

Cheers

Thanks for the detailed response. Well, I currently own a Staytrem and a Mastery… if you want a beta tester…

Seziertisch

@Tuffset What metal or metals is your bridge made of?

Tuffset

Seziertisch said:

@Tuffset What metal or metals is your bridge made of?

303 and 304 Stainless Steel, all milled from billet (no foldings, stampings, castings).

At the moment, we're looking at 303 from the upper saddles, posts and locking retainers, and 304 for the wedges (lower saddles) and chassis.

There is a possibility of doing a version that uses brass instead of 303 for added variety in appearance and sound - maybe that comes later. But the first run are likely all to be steel.

We're going for 4uA and 8uA surface smoothness on most components, and a global tolerance of 0.025mm. this allowed me to design in the necessary fitment tolerances to ensure smooth functioning of the adjustment system without things getting "gappy".

It is made to these tolerances because the way it works demands it. But as a result, if you put it next to any other piece of guitar hardware it looks like jewellery. I've got top quality stuff on several of my guitars from ABM, Callaham etc. - lovely pieces,  but not made to this quality because they don't have to be.

Tuffset

Squareheadedfreak said:

@tuffset Are there any plans for a run that fits Bass VI's?

I have actually been active on a Bass VI Facebook group surveying their requirements. It should have the intonation range (11mm in all), but I'm not 100% sure the string slots will be suitably wide/deep to support some of the heavier gauges.

Seziertisch

@Tuffset When you ready, be sure to get one to Lloydfuzzman on YouTube.

He has done some invaluable offset bridge comparisons. Same guitar, same signal chain.

 I think the Halon Guitar guys got a sales/profile boost when he included one of their bridges in a comparison.

stickyfiddle

Seziertisch said:

@Tuffset When you ready, be sure to get one to Lloydfuzzman on YouTube.

He has done some invaluable offset bridge comparisons. Same guitar, same signal chain.

 I think the Halon Guitar guys got a sales/profile boost when he included one of their bridges in a comparison.

Yeah he's a top chap and seriously knows his stuff. 

Frankly I'd also send one to Puisheen (Mike Adams of M&M Guitar Bar) in Seattle. Great bloke and about as good as any in terms of getting eyeballs on it. I'm guessing he's also on OSG and aware of this  

stickyfiddle

citesquestion said:

Maybe a stupid question but what problems of the JM are swapped by updating the vibrato vs the bridge? My vague understanding is that it doesn't particularly work well with anything below 11s when it comes to strings so folks have come up with replacements for both.

With bridge, hanging radius is good but thought some Jaguar bridges come with height adjustable saddles. If I swap the vibrato for one of the fancy Masteries, can I use 10s? 

Or the bridge needs to be locking for a reason?

With a good bridge you can use 9s on a JM if you want (I do!). I run Masteries on my JMs and have had Staytrems too, but they ain't perfect. 

Ideally any trem bridge should:
1) have intonation adjustment for every string independently
2) have height adjustment for every string independently
3) be able to move/rock with the strings as you move the trem (rather than have the strings slide over the saddles)
4) stay exactly how you set it

The stock bridge has 1-3 but not 4, Staytrem has 1, 3 & 4, Mastery has 4 (but not strictly 1 & 2 despite the marketing), and the Tuffset potentially offers all 4. 

(Arguably Graphtech saddles actually give you all 4 but don't sound quite the same and certainly don't look great.)
 
IMO the trem/vibrato isn't quite as critical as long as it's fit for purpose, which basically just means returning to the original position after you stop using it, and that it doesn't wear out, obviously. I've used the AVRI unit with Staytrem collet and I'm happy with that combo. 

Seziertisch

stickyfiddle said:

Seziertisch said:

@Tuffset When you ready, be sure to get one to Lloydfuzzman on YouTube.

He has done some invaluable offset bridge comparisons. Same guitar, same signal chain.

 I think the Halon Guitar guys got a sales/profile boost when he included one of their bridges in a comparison.

Yeah he's a top chap and seriously knows his stuff. 

Frankly I'd also send one to Puisheen (Mike Adams of M&M Guitar Bar) in Seattle. Great bloke and about as good as any in terms of getting eyeballs on it. I'm guessing he's also on OSG and aware of this  

I had been in touch with the Halon guys before they released their offset bridge and told them that in terms of getting the word out Lloyd and Mike were the guys to talk to. I can only presume they contacted Mike as well, but nothing ever came of it. I think Mike might be a Mastery guy.

jellybelly

@Tuffset great to have you contributing. Will see about giving this a go with an upcoming Jazzmaster purchase. Liked the idea of the machined, solid nature of the Mastery in principal but didn't enjoy it in practice, and have generally had the StayTrem as the go-to solution for my JM and Jag. This sort of sits somewhere between those solutions, so keen to give it a go!

I don't think it looks bad at all btw, like other have said maybe a bit fiddly in isolation but in keeping with the guitar when fitted...

roberty

gumbothewiddler said:

Damn, this thread is making me want to buy a jazzmaster!

They're great if you like fiddling with things and 1meg pots ;-)

punchesjudy

So… How much are we talking here?? Cos I would be interested in trying one at the right price point. 

Whitecat

Here's a crazy question for @Tuffset - Will these be available "reliced" for those of us that have guitars with the pre-aged faux wear vibe - or, even real authentic age wear? I'd be willing to pay a bit extra for that. If the device works, sometimes it's a bit gauche-looking on a worn vintage guitar (or factory relic) when they are brand shiny new...

citesquestion

IMO the trem/vibrato isn't quite as critical as long as it's fit for purpose, which basically just means returning to the original position after you stop using it, and that it doesn't wear out, obviously. I've used the AVRI unit with Staytrem collet and I'm happy with that combo. 

Thanks, very interesting. Maybe a sacrilegious question but can any string-through bridge used with a JM vibrato? I've seen tune-o-matics on some builds but could you use, say, a Tele barrel bridge? Or the height isn't quite right?

stickyfiddle

Whitecat said:

Here's a crazy question for @Tuffset - Will these be available "reliced" for those of us that have guitars with the pre-aged faux wear vibe - or, even real authentic age wear? I'd be willing to pay a bit extra for that. If the device works, sometimes it's a bit gauche-looking on a worn vintage guitar (or factory relic) when they are brand shiny new...

Not a crazy question imo - it would be a great option. Though the brushed finish helps it a lot. It's the super-shiny chrome of brand new hardware that's the biggest issue

Whitecat

stickyfiddle said:

Whitecat said:

Here's a crazy question for @Tuffset - Will these be available "reliced" for those of us that have guitars with the pre-aged faux wear vibe - or, even real authentic age wear? I'd be willing to pay a bit extra for that. If the device works, sometimes it's a bit gauche-looking on a worn vintage guitar (or factory relic) when they are brand shiny new...

Not a crazy question imo - it would be a great option. Though the brushed finish helps it a lot. It's the super-shiny chrome of brand new hardware that's the biggest issue

Oh definitely it's not as bad as it could be - but it will still stand out a bit on a "heavy relic" (natural, or otherwise..!) - at least enough to annoy me.  

jellybelly

citesquestion said:

IMO the trem/vibrato isn't quite as critical as long as it's fit for purpose, which basically just means returning to the original position after you stop using it, and that it doesn't wear out, obviously. I've used the AVRI unit with Staytrem collet and I'm happy with that combo. 

Thanks, very interesting. Maybe a sacrilegious question but can any string-through bridge used with a JM vibrato? I've seen tune-o-matics on some builds but could you use, say, a Tele barrel bridge? Or the height isn't quite right?

This is the stock configuration (tune-o-matic) of the now- discontinued Classic Player line (though maybe there are newer equivalents - the modified MIM Vintera models maybe?)

Tune-o-matics make for very stable tuning if you don't use the trem, but the sharp saddles do a lot to take it out of tune quickly and radius is off. Roller ToM bridge worked well though

Height would defo be the issue with a Tele bridge - I did look into it at one point. Could possibly find saddles with extended height screws or an offset with a particularly shallow neck angle. If it was normal Tele height I would think the break angle over the saddles wouldn't be great enough. A Mastery is probably as close as you'll get but others might prove me wrong?

digitalkettle

Semi-interested: got an aftermarket Staytrem on a JM Jag here.

Over the years, I've seen quite a few trade-folk jump in on a thread like this and totally shit the bed

However, @Tuffset is nailing it here...welcome to the...erm...jungle(?)

roberty

digitalkettle said:

Semi-interested: got an aftermarket Staytrem on a JM Jag here.

Over the years, I've seen quite a few trade-folk jump in on a thread like this and totally shit the bed

However, @Tuffset is nailing it here...welcome to the...erm...jungle(?)

Totally. Tuff by name, tuff by nature

Tuffset

Seziertisch said:

@Tuffset When you ready, be sure to get one to Lloydfuzzman on YouTube.

He has done some invaluable offset bridge comparisons. Same guitar, same signal chain.

 I think the Halon Guitar guys got a sales/profile boost when he included one of their bridges in a comparison.

I am sending one to Lloyd! He's a great guy, I've worked with him before. And I agree his videos are excellent for comparison - not just clickbait hype, but really letting you hear the stuff fairly in a range of contexts.

stickyfiddle said:

Seziertisch said:

@Tuffset When you ready, be sure to get one to Lloydfuzzman on YouTube.

He has done some invaluable offset bridge comparisons. Same guitar, same signal chain.

 I think the Halon Guitar guys got a sales/profile boost when he included one of their bridges in a comparison.

Yeah he's a top chap and seriously knows his stuff. 

Frankly I'd also send one to Puisheen (Mike Adams of M&M Guitar Bar) in Seattle. Great bloke and about as good as any in terms of getting eyeballs on it. I'm guessing he's also on OSG and aware of this  

Michael James Adams too! One of the first off the line will be going to Puisheen. He was actually a huge help in the development - I got the design to a point where it would lock but not have individual saddle height adjustment, and Mike's advice and experience with vintage guitars helped me talk myself into developing the system which later became subject of the patent. I've also done a few bits for the Guitar Bar over the years, so I'll chat with Mike Ball about the possibilities there.

jellybelly said:

@Tuffset great to have you contributing. Will see about giving this a go with an upcoming Jazzmaster purchase. Liked the idea of the machined, solid nature of the Mastery in principal but didn't enjoy it in practice, and have generally had the StayTrem as the go-to solution for my JM and Jag. This sort of sits somewhere between those solutions, so keen to give it a go!

I don't think it looks bad at all btw, like other have said maybe a bit fiddly in isolation but in keeping with the guitar when fitted...

As I've said to others, it's us StayTrem fans who I think will value the Tuffset the most. Generally because we're all about that rocking action! But I also think there's an important mission in getting it into the hands of those who think Fixed Posts are the only way to go - having experienced the design long term, I just can't imagine anyone faulting the solidity or stability.

punchesjudy said:

So… How much are we talking here?? Cos I would be interested in trying one at the right price point. 

I'm afraid I can't give an exact answer - join the mailing list on the Tuffset website and we'll let you know when we have a solid figure!

Whitecat said:

Here's a crazy question for @Tuffset - Will these be available "reliced" for those of us that have guitars with the pre-aged faux wear vibe - or, even real authentic age wear? I'd be willing to pay a bit extra for that. If the device works, sometimes it's a bit gauche-looking on a worn vintage guitar (or factory relic) when they are brand shiny new...

It's actually not something I've given much thought to! But I'm open to the idea. I just checked out a few videos about how to age stainless steel - half of them look like they're not even using stainless, so I'd have to do my own homework I think.

But I actually have an old Japanese Gretsch that has some really lovely patina on some of the stainless parts, more like a matte finish than anything looking rusted or busted. But that might be enough just to knock it back.

stickyfiddle said:

Whitecat said:

Here's a crazy question for @Tuffset - Will these be available "reliced" for those of us that have guitars with the pre-aged faux wear vibe - or, even real authentic age wear? I'd be willing to pay a bit extra for that. If the device works, sometimes it's a bit gauche-looking on a worn vintage guitar (or factory relic) when they are brand shiny new...

Not a crazy question imo - it would be a great option. Though the brushed finish helps it a lot. It's the super-shiny chrome of brand new hardware that's the biggest issue

Here's the thing - the super-shiny, newness look is kind of a complex phenomenon in my opinion. 

In my experience, it's more often the product of cheap-ness, not new-ness per se. Bridges and parts made by die casting, stamping etc. are tempting for the company to just cake with chrome. The shiny-ness improves things at a glance, but if you look closely you're actually still seeing the imperfections or poor quality of what lies underneath.

The Tuffset is different. For a start, it's not going to be chrome plated - what you see on the outside is what it's made from on the inside. But there is always a question of surface roughness (level of "polish", if you will) that goes along with tolerancing on the technical specs.

What you're seeing on the prototype isn't a brushed finish - it's actually the milling marks. On the production version, these are being kept to a minimum and will likely only feature at all on the underside of the bridge and a little on the chassis at the bottom plane, amongst the saddles. The "Shoulders" will be polished flat, and the turned surfaces of the saddles will have the directional anisomorphic quality that catches the light in a bar shape, but will otherwise be pretty shiny.

Think of something like a Callaham Strat bridge, that might be a good analogy. It's not offensively bright and shiny, but neither is it brushed. I don't think it would necessarily look out of place on a guitar new or old, but if it does and that's an issue, I'd rather start with a level of surface quality that doesn't look out of place on a Jag next to a load of chrome plates and then *age it down* somehow than aim for a kind of brushed / scruffy effect that's neither in one camp nor the other. Do you know what I mean?

Tuffset

digitalkettle said:

Semi-interested: got an aftermarket Staytrem on a JM Jag here.

Over the years, I've seen quite a few trade-folk jump in on a thread like this and totally shit the bed

However, @Tuffset is nailing it here...welcome to the...erm...jungle(?)

roberty said:

digitalkettle said:

Semi-interested: got an aftermarket Staytrem on a JM Jag here.

Over the years, I've seen quite a few trade-folk jump in on a thread like this and totally shit the bed

However, @Tuffset is nailing it here...welcome to the...erm...jungle(?)

Totally. Tuff by name, tuff by nature

Haha, cheers guys! It's just one of those things - I know what forums are like, and many times in the past I've been "that guy".

It's reasonable to be cynical about new products in the guitar-parts-adjacent world. A lot of companies deliberately don't decide to improve or change the designs of what they're offering from vintage, instead relying on "better materials" to make the difference.

For example - perhaps they don't understand *why* the better materials are making something sound better in one context, but not in another. Perhaps they're hearing with their brains, and not with their ears.

This is a situation in which even well-meaning and honest people can produce a product they don't understand, that doesn't work, and relies upon snake oil and superstition in the marketing. it's a minefield, and the "gatekeeping" instinct by forum members exists to protect others from making a mistake with their money.