Slightly Poor Experience with a Retailer

prowla

According to this, the returns policy & postage must be stated and if not then the seller must bear the cost.

https://www.companywizard.co.uk/blog/distance-selling-what-you-need-to-know

Rob1742

If I was the retailer, I’d do one of the two options below:

1. Get someone else in the store to deal with it and tell them not to tell me what they are doing as I just don’t want to know

2. Look at retiring

I would be thinking that if it comes to this, I’m out of here 

prowla

SimonC said:

rlw said:

duotone said:

I know it’s not your situation, but I just read this on: https://www.peachguitars.com/customer-service/returns-info.htm

Goods Purchased in Store: Our in store policy is that “all sales are final", if you’ve visited, tried something in person while using our service, expertise etc, then there is no legal or moral responsibility for refunds. We will allow for an exchange in certain circumstances, get in touch to discuss your situation further.

Interesting!

Interesting and quite normal too.

So what's the policy if you try out the guitar in person, then put it back on the hanger, go home and order it online?
Or maybe even just nip out to the car park and do the same from there?

The distance selling applies to goods which are not seen, so if the shop can demonstrate that you have had hands on it then they are not obliged to refund.

https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

When you do not have to offer a refund

You do not have to refund a customer if they:

• knew an item was faulty when they bought it
• damaged an item by trying to repair it themselves or getting someone else to do it (though they may still have the right to a repair, replacement or partial refund)
• no longer want an item (for example because it’s the wrong size or colour) unless they bought it without seeing it

Cols

thebreeze said:

I think this is really a question about who’s callipers are most accurate, however, I don’t think a shop should quibble if the customer demonstrates his measurements are different and the guitar feels therefore “wrong”.

The shop didn’t quibble.  They said they “would accept it for a full refund as a standard return.​"

The OP’s question was whether the shop should be made to pay the cost of returning the guitar as well as the refund on the grounds of “goods not as described”.  The group consensus was “no”, and to his credit the OP has returned the guitar at his own expense and got a full refund.

paulmapp8306

Lawriejones1 said:

Personally, I find this whole situation utterly mad.

Simplify the question. Did the shop mislead you or not?

Given the differences between two measurements I’m saying no. In this case you pay for the return.

If someone with such detailed requirements messaged me, I’d assume a sale was going to be problematic and suggest you bring your measuring tools to the shop.

rlw said:

duotone said:

I know it’s not your situation, but I just read this on: https://www.peachguitars.com/customer-service/returns-info.htm

Goods Purchased in Store: Our in store policy is that “all sales are final", if you’ve visited, tried something in person while using our service, expertise etc, then there is no legal or moral responsibility for refunds. We will allow for an exchange in certain circumstances, get in touch to discuss your situation further.

Interesting!

Interesting and quite normal too.

Personally I think its far too big a difference in measurement - its big in engineering terms and if measured correctly (taking 2 or more measurements to be sure) this wouldn't have happened.  

paulmapp8306

thebreeze said:

I think this is really a question about who’s callipers are most accurate, however, I don’t think a shop should quibble if the customer demonstrates his measurements are different and the guitar feels therefore “wrong”.

I also think the value/model of the guitar does make a difference.

On Fender custom shop guitars it is the norm to express the measurements at the 1st and 12th frets and it’s a specific detail that is stated on the spec sheet.  As such you really ought to be getting what you’re told you’re getting.  I certainly pay attention to this detail and it’s a major consideration alongside the other stuff like neck shape, pickup type, weight and colour.  If you go to a website like Wildwood they express it in the thumbnail pics for all the guitars they’re selling as one of the “priority factors”.  All the good shops do it or have started to do it in their descriptions, a bit like giving the weight.  It’s a pain if they don’t and you have to go searching or asking for more info.

This isn’t the case for other models in the Fender line (as far as I know) and necks are made to a standard measure.  As it’s not one of the stated specs I don’t think you can be as exacting as a customer within a certain reasonable range of difference.

In OP’s situation he’s actually asked for a measurement.  The shop have been good enough to do one rather than just saying “it’s a standard Modern C” or whatever.  I can see it from both sides and in the end I think OP has done the right thing paying and moving on although on balance I think the shop should have paid to take it back in this instance.

THIS.  It took me 3 years to find the right tele - party due to finish, but mostly down to neck profile and depth.  I turned down several without going to try them because the neck was further out than .020 at either 1st or 12th neck.  Its massive for me that detail, and if not publicised on the listing (either directly or the manufacturers profile name - that you can then check on their site) Id be asking for that measurement before I bought.    If it arrived 0.033 out Id be fuming.

i absolutely agree the reseller SHOULD have paid for the return shipping - as if they had measured accurately the OP wouldn't have bought the guitar.  That said, If the reseller wasnt budging - the return postage isnt likely to be worth the fight as the guitar could be returned anyway under distance selling regs.

The key part here - is does the shop/reseller want to loose the OP as a customer?   I CERTAINLY wouldnt ever shop again at that reseller - if they had just covered the return I likely would have used them a lot more than I had previously as I knew I could trust them.   That isnt something the OP can factor in but Im wondering if the reseller did or not. Keeping that customer and possibly gaining more sales if probably worth more than the loss of the cost of postage - especially as they have set rates with couriers even for returns that are a lot less than general costs.

strtdv

prowla said:

SimonC said:

rlw said:

duotone said:

I know it’s not your situation, but I just read this on: https://www.peachguitars.com/customer-service/returns-info.htm

Goods Purchased in Store: Our in store policy is that “all sales are final", if you’ve visited, tried something in person while using our service, expertise etc, then there is no legal or moral responsibility for refunds. We will allow for an exchange in certain circumstances, get in touch to discuss your situation further.

Interesting!

Interesting and quite normal too.

So what's the policy if you try out the guitar in person, then put it back on the hanger, go home and order it online?
Or maybe even just nip out to the car park and do the same from there?

The distance selling applies to goods which are not seen, so if the shop can demonstrate that you have had hands on it then they are not obliged to refund.

https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds

When you do not have to offer a refund

You do not have to refund a customer if they:

• knew an item was faulty when they bought it
• damaged an item by trying to repair it themselves or getting someone else to do it (though they may still have the right to a repair, replacement or partial refund)
• no longer want an item (for example because it’s the wrong size or colour) unless they bought it without seeing it

Unless you volunteered that information during the online ordering process I'd imagine it would be essentially impossible for the retailer to prove that you'd played it in store.

FelineGuitars

I think one of the issues with a member of shop staff trying to measure the depth with calipers is having to get the strings out of the way . I'm assuming that he/she didn't entirely remove the strings to get that measurement, and that does make it tricky to do.

I'm fortunate to also have a luthier's thickness caliper that can do it with the strings on (although it will only give a mm reading and not a thousandths of an inch reading)

In terms of measuring necks - I measure RIGHT BEHIND the first fret, as many necks taper into the headstock so anywhere else would give a false impression.

RIGHT IN FRONT of the first fret would work too.

Sporky

I can see that 0.8mm could feel quite different. I can also see that measuring it accurately might be a minor faff. 

thebreeze

Cols said:

thebreeze said:

I think this is really a question about who’s callipers are most accurate, however, I don’t think a shop should quibble if the customer demonstrates his measurements are different and the guitar feels therefore “wrong”.

The shop didn’t quibble.  They said they “would accept it for a full refund as a standard return.​"

The OP’s question was whether the shop should be made to pay the cost of returning the guitar as well as the refund on the grounds of “goods not as described”.  The group consensus was “no”, and to his credit the OP has returned the guitar at his own expense and got a full refund.

Thanks for the Mansplaing, Cols.

guitars4you

FelineGuitars said:

I think one of the issues with a member of shop staff trying to measure the depth with calipers is having to get the strings out of the way . I'm assuming that he/she didn't entirely remove the strings to get that measurement, and that does make it tricky to do.

I'm fortunate to also have a luthier's thickness caliper that can do it with the strings on (although it will only give a mm reading and not a thousandths of an inch reading)

In terms of measuring necks - I measure RIGHT BEHIND the first fret, as many necks taper into the headstock so anywhere else would give a false impression.

RIGHT IN FRONT of the first fret would work too.

I agree - I measure at the 1st fret (top nut side of that ) can't measure at the nut itself on many guitars, as you say some guitars have already increased in depth at this point towards the fatter taper of the headstock - Plus I always measure back of the neck to the top of the fingerboard - So no strings in play at all 

prowla

thebreeze said:

Cols said:

thebreeze said:

I think this is really a question about who’s callipers are most accurate, however, I don’t think a shop should quibble if the customer demonstrates his measurements are different and the guitar feels therefore “wrong”.

The shop didn’t quibble.  They said they “would accept it for a full refund as a standard return.​"

The OP’s question was whether the shop should be made to pay the cost of returning the guitar as well as the refund on the grounds of “goods not as described”.  The group consensus was “no”, and to his credit the OP has returned the guitar at his own expense and got a full refund.

Thanks for the Mansplaing, Cols.

Can I just point out that it should be spelled mansplaining? :-)

guitars4you

paulmapp8306 said:

thebreeze said:

I think this is really a question about who’s callipers are most accurate, however, I don’t think a shop should quibble if the customer demonstrates his measurements are different and the guitar feels therefore “wrong”.

I also think the value/model of the guitar does make a difference.

On Fender custom shop guitars it is the norm to express the measurements at the 1st and 12th frets and it’s a specific detail that is stated on the spec sheet.  As such you really ought to be getting what you’re told you’re getting.  I certainly pay attention to this detail and it’s a major consideration alongside the other stuff like neck shape, pickup type, weight and colour.  If you go to a website like Wildwood they express it in the thumbnail pics for all the guitars they’re selling as one of the “priority factors”.  All the good shops do it or have started to do it in their descriptions, a bit like giving the weight.  It’s a pain if they don’t and you have to go searching or asking for more info.

This isn’t the case for other models in the Fender line (as far as I know) and necks are made to a standard measure.  As it’s not one of the stated specs I don’t think you can be as exacting as a customer within a certain reasonable range of difference.

In OP’s situation he’s actually asked for a measurement.  The shop have been good enough to do one rather than just saying “it’s a standard Modern C” or whatever.  I can see it from both sides and in the end I think OP has done the right thing paying and moving on although on balance I think the shop should have paid to take it back in this instance.

THIS.  It took me 3 years to find the right tele - party due to finish, but mostly down to neck profile and depth.  I turned down several without going to try them because the neck was further out than .020 at either 1st or 12th neck.  Its massive for me that detail, and if not publicised on the listing (either directly or the manufacturers profile name - that you can then check on their site) Id be asking for that measurement before I bought.    If it arrived 0.033 out Id be fuming.

i absolutely agree the reseller SHOULD have paid for the return shipping - as if they had measured accurately the OP wouldn't have bought the guitar.  That said, If the reseller wasnt budging - the return postage isnt likely to be worth the fight as the guitar could be returned anyway under distance selling regs.

The key part here - is does the shop/reseller want to loose the OP as a customer?   I CERTAINLY wouldnt ever shop again at that reseller - if they had just covered the return I likely would have used them a lot more than I had previously as I knew I could trust them.   That isnt something the OP can factor in but Im wondering if the reseller did or not. Keeping that customer and possibly gaining more sales if probably worth more than the loss of the cost of postage - especially as they have set rates with couriers even for returns that are a lot less than general costs.

I have never known my  actual reading of  Fender Custom Shop neck match that of the traveler spec sheet - Or indeed Suhr or Anderson - generally my reading is always a touch fatter - I believe this is because the manufactures have a 'default option' for that model and don't 'print' the actual measurement for each guitar after it has been made - Partly due to sanding out cutting blade marks after it has come out of the CNC - Partly due to hand sanding it to be 'baby skin' smooth 

As such 2 CS Fenders with the same 'factory' profile - ie 65C - are NOT IDENTICAL - close but never identical - Same on a PRS, and they are hell bent on trying to replicate the same profile 10 times out of 10 - The CNC can cut the neck to a precision finite profile - But hand sanding creates a small difference for such a 'factory' measurement 

sawyer

I've several guitars,all with different neck thicknesses and find I play equally badly on all of them without feeling a difference. Less than a mm seems a very small amount to be able to feel

Stuckfast

Are there particular styles of guitar playing that are very sensitive to neck shape and depth? Mine are all over the map, and it doesn't bother me, after a minute of playing one guitar I've forgotten what the previous one was like. But I am not a super technical shredder or anything like that.

elstoof

guitars4you said:

FelineGuitars said:

In terms of measuring necks - I measure RIGHT BEHIND the first fret, as many necks taper into the headstock so anywhere else would give a false impression.

RIGHT IN FRONT of the first fret would work too.

I agree - I measure at the 1st fret (top nut side of that ) can't measure at the nut itself on many guitars, as you say some guitars have already increased in depth at this point towards the fatter taper of the headstock 

Would it not be sensible to measure on top of the fret, you press the string against the fret not the fretboard. An aggressive fret dress or vintage sizes could be half a mm “thinner” than a jumbo metal guitar fret would on the same neck  

thebreeze

prowla said:

thebreeze said:

Cols said:

thebreeze said:

I think this is really a question about who’s callipers are most accurate, however, I don’t think a shop should quibble if the customer demonstrates his measurements are different and the guitar feels therefore “wrong”.

The shop didn’t quibble.  They said they “would accept it for a full refund as a standard return.​"

The OP’s question was whether the shop should be made to pay the cost of returning the guitar as well as the refund on the grounds of “goods not as described”.  The group consensus was “no”, and to his credit the OP has returned the guitar at his own expense and got a full refund.

Thanks for the Mansplaing, Cols.

Can I just point out that it should be spelled mansplaining? :-)

I think it all depends on how pissed you are, obviously.

ewal

One of these days I might check what the neck profiles on my guitars are. 40 years playing and I don't know what a C or D profile really is. Assume you can tell just by looking at them.

Genuinely not a sly dig at OP or anyone who this matters to. Just interesting that it is such a personal thing and there's  such a variety of opinions on it.

guitars4you

ewal said:

One of these days I might check what the neck profiles on my guitars are. 40 years playing and I don't know what a C or D profile really is. Assume you can tell just by looking at them.

Genuinely not a sly dig at OP or anyone who this matters to. Just interesting that it is such a personal thing and there's  such a variety of opinions on it.

Hard sometimes to describe what is a C or D - How fat the shoulders are, comes into play and this is not picked up with a measurement - As most measurements should be from the top/back - ie the thickest measurement possible at the first fret 

When does a C become a fat C or a D - gray areas come into play - And you are right - it is personal 

Cols

thebreeze said:

Cols said:

thebreeze said:

I think this is really a question about who’s callipers are most accurate, however, I don’t think a shop should quibble if the customer demonstrates his measurements are different and the guitar feels therefore “wrong”.

The shop didn’t quibble.  They said they “would accept it for a full refund as a standard return.​"

The OP’s question was whether the shop should be made to pay the cost of returning the guitar as well as the refund on the grounds of “goods not as described”.  The group consensus was “no”, and to his credit the OP has returned the guitar at his own expense and got a full refund.

Thanks for the Mansplaing, Cols.

Oh, it’s quite all right.  

Happy to help you with your written comprehension, Prowla’s helping out with your spellings and if someone else can help you with your maths we’ll all pull together as a forum and get you through primary school.