Ian Elson guitars (new UK brand)

Adamski

I really hope you don't take these comments to heart and welcome the insight.
I feel that regardless of whether the product is for me or not (it's not), I would have been able to accept it if it had looked like you had taken some time to think offer your business plan, your offering to the market and how you market your product. What I've seen is something that strikes me as just being incredibly naive.

If I were you I would take some of the great feedback above, go back to the drawing board and think about what it is you want to bring to market, what your selling point is then spend some considerable time researching if that's all viable and then getting someone in to produce some great marketing for you.

There's actually a fair amount of competition in the UK custom build market, even at sub £1000. Just look at Jaden and Sabre as examples.

All the best.

asimmd

If you don't have a sound business model no one will lend you anything. You have already said you are not a business man so get someone who knows about these things and put something together you can take to a bank etc.

fretmeister

Just a thought...

Never ever use your own name as the Business name.

If the company folds and you start up again, you can't use it again, and your name will always be linked to the failure of the original company.

"Smith & Sons Grocers" can get away with it because of the amount of "Smiths"

Far better to pick a name that can happily die with the company without tainting anything you do in the future.

xmrchi

Apart from some decent info there is a lot of opinions being passed off as fact here, lots of negatives with a smidgen of a positive at the end.

Poor chap, he's starting a business and its being picked apart on a public forum which can be seen by everyone, not really helping is it? He's done more than most to get it started, and looks like he's made a decent product at a decent price....... Give him a break.

Fortheloveofguitar

Saw this on FB weeks ago and immediately he was set upon by people slagging him off and beating him down.

richh

Good luck to Ian, and I'd love to say otherwise, but I agree with virtually all the advice here.  Octatonic's logic is flawless IMO and if Ian can go back to basics and really plan things in the light of the responses he has had, then in the long run, that may be his best bet.

Fretmeister is also correct IMO about now using your own name, however if you are bold enough to do so, knowing the risks, then that says a lot for your confidence in putting your name firmly behind the product line - think of Paul Reed Smith for example!

There was another very recent thread on the forum about body shapes, and frustrating as it may be for builders who want to innovate, many guitarists do love the classics: Les Paul, Strat, Tele and a few other classics so that's a tough nut - go the usual route and it is harder to differentiate, try something new and struggle to appeal to a relatively conservative market.

Lewy

mrchi said:

there is a lot of opinions being passed off as fact here

You....know this is the internet, right?

Actually, I think that opinion being passed off as fact is one of the reasons that Ian's sales messaging is making people bristle a bit and perhaps be harsher in their criticism than they might otherwise be. e.g neck material "often overlooked"... no, it isn't, especially by people who are about to drop £850 on a guitar. There are value judgments peppered all the way through it. In his efforts to explain how customised the guitar can be to the customers requirements, he inadvertently makes the reader think "am I going to have to deal with this guy's opinion every time I want to define an area of spec?". I'm sure that is NOT the reality of dealing with Ian.

I think another thing that puts backs up is the perceived value of what is on offer in return for the £10 and £50 Kickstarter pledges, The £10 one sounds like it's basically a tenner in exchange for a thank you and the opportunity to be marketed to? And the £50 one is just too conceptual and likely to amount to nothing. 

Again, these are intended to be constructive comments.

OilCityPickups

mrchi said:

Apart from some decent info there is a lot of opinions being passed off as fact here, lots of negatives with a smidgen of a positive at the end.

Poor chap, he's starting a business and its being picked apart on a public forum which can be seen by everyone, not really helping is it? He's done more than most to get it started, and looks like he's made a decent product at a decent price....... Give him a break.

I agree ...

Firstly welcome to the forum Ian, it's a brilliant place to get feedback about your products ... it can be bruising at times, but stick with it, they are a nice bunch here. Honestly.

The 'getting business advice' theme is a sound one ... I didn't, and made things very hard for myself initially ... But I got a good, savvy business partner and that helped a lot.

Your overall body design reminds me of the 1970s in particular Veleno guitars

People are completely right about the conservatism of the average guitarist (bass players are, strangely, more open minded). And I think your choice of body outline may be putting you at a disadvantage. British aesthetics in design where guitars are concerned have always suffered when compared to the 'classic' US shapes, Take Shergold as a prime example. I love em as guitars, but only the visually challenged would call em elegant. sorry @Impmann

Market research is everything in this business:

Who are your customers?

What are their ages?

What is their disposable income on instruments?

There are many less gigging musos than there were, and many I see on the pub circuit are using Far Eastern instruments with upgraded electronics and pickups. This saddens me as a champion of British products, but I see the economic sense. When bare bones US instruments are available sub £500 it makes it doubly difficult to compete ... 

My own take is that we need to do what we do best in Britain ... make top quality gear for sensible, sustainable prices and bugger trying to undercut foreign competition ... it's not a war we can win. 

 

EricTheWeary

Wow, I'd be amazed if Ian posted again - that's quite a barrage. :bz

Roland

@IanElsonGuitar. Ian, these guys are amongst the most knowledgeable in the UK, and many are potential customers. Their advice isn't sugar coated, and they aren't infallible. This is the Internet after all. In their defence, they've seen UK guitar builders come and go. If you can take their advice on board then you might have the beginnings of a successful business.

OilCityPickups

EricTheWeary said:

Wow, I'd be amazed if Ian posted again - that's quite a barrage. :bz

The musical instrument/acessory industry is tough ... It is best to grow a thick skin :-)

I remember when someone said 'you wind good pickups ... for a British winder' I felt like nutting them, but you smile and carry on. 

I had a deranged and politically correct 'marketing expert' telling me that the use of the British flag on my website and packaging sent out the wrong message ... I ignored them. 

Sometimes you have to listen, digest, and still plough your own furrow.

impmann

Maybe I should go to Specsavers, eh @TheGuitarWeasel ? ;-)

Welcome Ian.

Making and selling guitars is tough. Every guitarist is a critic. Every guitarist knows more about design than you. Every guitarist knows more about quality than you. Every guitarist can do better quality than you. Every guitarist can set guitars up better than you.

Accept all the above and you'll sleep better at night.

Listen to constructive criticism and better still, act on it.

Ignore the "it's shit" brigade - there's a lot of it about and they are a lot braver behind a keyboard/iPhone screen than they are to your face. However, try to work out what the cavemen are unhappy about and see if it's something you can/want to fix.

In terms of money. Wrong industry, mate. Did you hear about the British Guitar Maker who won the Euromillions? He said he'd keep the business going until the winnings ran out.

It's a crowded market in the midfield - just where you are pitching. The expectations are high, the profits are tight and the discounts kill you.

I too am not *that* keen on your body design... I'm sure you can tweek it to inject a little elegance and to give a customer a reason to pick it up over any other brand. And that is where I get to my biggest point...

I'm not convinced that your USP should be it being 'British' in such a negative way against all the other manufacturers, just based on geographical location. It's at best Clarkson-esque and whilst he's made a lot of money out of being a jingoistic baboon, it's not a great role model IMHO. Yes, focus on quality and focus on your Made in England ethic - but don't try to rubbish the guitars made elsewhere as the fact remains that we've never had it so good in terms of quality vs price. Nobody likes someone who just rubbishes others to make themselves look good - it's moronic, if I'm frank.

I believe there *is* a place for hand made, UK guitars (especially if you factor in using UK made pickups, bridges and finishing systems). I think that if I'm honest, you need some help with getting your message out correctly to appeal to the most people and a few tweeks to the design, taking into account current trends, design ideas and your target buyer.

Good luck, fella - you will need it - and try to see past the negativity. :-)

EricTheWeary

He's not here for a business meeting or intervention though, it's a guitar forum and a bunch of posts of several paragraphs explaining how he is running his small business badly and his product is crap just seems bad form. I don't disagree or know enough to disagree with any particular point I just felt as a mass it was counter productive is all.

Adamski

I don't think it's poor form at all. We all want to see small businesses do well, but we also want them to be well informed about the challenges ahead.

If I were Ian, I would be so happy to have received this feedback. The feedback given is not generalised, it is specific and that is the type of feedback that allows us to grow. It will also stop him making costly mistakes.

That being said, this forum is full of builders and players who have more than been around the block and we won't tolerate naivety towards the reality or quality of the competition or our perceived lack of knowledge.

Peace.

OilCityPickups

impmann said:

Maybe I should go to Specsavers, eh @TheGuitarWeasel ? ;-)

Welcome Ian.

Making and selling guitars is tough. Every guitarist is a critic. Every guitarist knows more about design than you. Every guitarist knows more about quality than you. Every guitarist can do better quality than you. Every guitarist can set guitars up better than you.

Accept all the above and you'll sleep better at night.

Listen to constructive criticism and better still, act on it.

Ignore the "it's shit" brigade - there's a lot of it about and they are a lot braver behind a keyboard/iPhone screen than they are to your face. However, try to work out what the cavemen are unhappy about and see if it's something you can/want to fix.

In terms of money. Wrong industry, mate. Did you hear about the British Guitar Maker who won the Euromillions? He said he'd keep the business going until the winnings ran out.

It's a crowded market in the midfield - just where you are pitching. The expectations are high, the profits are tight and the discounts kill you.

I too am not *that* keen on your body design... I'm sure you can tweek it to inject a little elegance and to give a customer a reason to pick it up over any other brand. And that is where I get to my biggest point...

I'm not convinced that your USP should be it being 'British' in such a negative way against all the other manufacturers, just based on geographical location. It's at best Clarkson-esque and whilst he's made a lot of money out of being a jingoistic baboon, it's not a great role model IMHO. Yes, focus on quality and focus on your Made in England ethic - but don't try to rubbish the guitars made elsewhere as the fact remains that we've never had it so good in terms of quality vs price. Nobody likes someone who just rubbishes others to make themselves look good - it's moronic, if I'm frank.

I believe there *is* a place for hand made, UK guitars (especially if you factor in using UK made pickups, bridges and finishing systems). I think that if I'm honest, you need some help with getting your message out correctly to appeal to the most people and a few tweeks to the design, taking into account current trends, design ideas and your target buyer.

Good luck, fella - you will need it - and try to see past the negativity. :-)

Have a wisdom @impmann

hobbio

I know nothing about building guitars or running a business, but £750 for a scratch built custom guitar seems too cheap to me.

Looking at the pic that was posted and nothing else I'd say that I love the headstock, pickup covers and bridge. I'm less keen on the shape, I'm far from offended by it but it does look unfinished. The grain pattern of the sycamore combined with the natural finish (I can't see anywhere whether you've used oil, lacquer etc. Apologies if I've missed it!) makes it look to my eye like it's a mock up pic taken just before you start the finishing process. The grain above the bridge pup just looks like a dirty smudge.

Still, the finish can be done differently and the wood grain would also be different. I couldn't buy the guitar in your pic, but that doesn't mean I couldn't live with that body shape in a different finish. I'll say it again too, I really love your headstock design.

The real test would be how well it plays, and nobody here can comment on that.

I wish you all the best mate.

JezWynd

hobbio said:

....Still, the finish can be done differently and the wood grain would also be different. I couldn't buy the guitar in your pic, but that doesn't mean I couldn't live with that body shape in a different finish. I'll say it again too, I really love your headstock design.

The real test would be how well it plays, and nobody here can comment on that.

I wish you all the best mate.

Me too. It's an elegant design that the body doesn't quite match up to, but it's almost there. Good luck in your venture.

xmrchi

Well he ain't been back, so may as well let this thread sink. :-< shame I'd have liked to watch the progress,

FelineGuitars

It's a tough industry to be in, and over the years I have seen so many come and go

Some were really slick guitars like Organic Guitars if anyone remembers them, but they disappeared

It may have been that the business model that they had wasn't sustainable to pay the overheads and salaries

Having small overheads can help but you do need to have some sound business sense.

Others have had a flurry of interest and disappeared still owing guitars to people who have paid deposits etc

Others trickle along still going whilst having to do other work  as well to keep a roof over their heads

Some only ever did it part time and never gave up the day job.

I have been doing this since 1987, working for others first, launching Feline in 1992 and going full time without a safety net in 1997, and to be fair I believe that "slow and steady wins the race", as you build up skills, loyalty and a good customer base and you develop the business skills and a sense of perspective.

MattG

shame i thought the guitar was pretty cool TBH and at the advertised prices i would have almost certainly bought one