Ian Elson guitars (new UK brand)

monquixote

Much as I wish Ian well here I think the sums are badly wrong especially as the site claims that they are custom pieces. 

I just don't see how someone could sell a hand made guitar for less than about £1500 and make any money at all. 

DrJazzTap

I wish him well, but can't say i like the design.

paulk

impmann said:

Maybe I should go to Specsavers, eh @TheGuitarWeasel ? ;-)

Welcome Ian.

Making and selling guitars is tough. Every guitarist is a critic. Every guitarist knows more about design than you. Every guitarist knows more about quality than you. Every guitarist can do better quality than you. Every guitarist can set guitars up better than you.

Accept all the above and you'll sleep better at night.

Listen to constructive criticism and better still, act on it.

Ignore the "it's shit" brigade - there's a lot of it about and they are a lot braver behind a keyboard/iPhone screen than they are to your face. However, try to work out what the cavemen are unhappy about and see if it's something you can/want to fix.

In terms of money. Wrong industry, mate. Did you hear about the British Guitar Maker who won the Euromillions? He said he'd keep the business going until the winnings ran out.

It's a crowded market in the midfield - just where you are pitching. The expectations are high, the profits are tight and the discounts kill you.

I too am not *that* keen on your body design... I'm sure you can tweek it to inject a little elegance and to give a customer a reason to pick it up over any other brand. And that is where I get to my biggest point...

I'm not convinced that your USP should be it being 'British' in such a negative way against all the other manufacturers, just based on geographical location. It's at best Clarkson-esque and whilst he's made a lot of money out of being a jingoistic baboon, it's not a great role model IMHO. Yes, focus on quality and focus on your Made in England ethic - but don't try to rubbish the guitars made elsewhere as the fact remains that we've never had it so good in terms of quality vs price. Nobody likes someone who just rubbishes others to make themselves look good - it's moronic, if I'm frank.

I believe there *is* a place for hand made, UK guitars (especially if you factor in using UK made pickups, bridges and finishing systems). I think that if I'm honest, you need some help with getting your message out correctly to appeal to the most people and a few tweeks to the design, taking into account current trends, design ideas and your target buyer.

Good luck, fella - you will need it - and try to see past the negativity. :-)

Have another 'wisdom' Impmann. Ian - good luck with your business, I hope you can make it work for you.

jpfamps

fretmeister said:

Just a thought...

Never ever use your own name as the Business name.

If the company folds and you start up again, you can't use it again, and your name will always be linked to the failure of the original company.

"Smith & Sons Grocers" can get away with it because of the amount of "Smiths"

Far better to pick a name that can happily die with the company without tainting anything you do in the future.

Gibson, Martin, Marshall, Fender, Peavey, PRS........................

jpfamps

TheGuitarWeasel said:

I had a deranged and politically correct 'marketing expert' telling me that the use of the British flag on my website and packaging sent out the wrong message ... I ignored them. 

.

What was he thinking? That you were limiting yourself to the neo-fascist replacement pick up market?

Heartfeltdawn

jpfamps said: What was he thinking? That you were limiting yourself to the neo-fascist replacement pick up market?

That'#s a hard customer to handle. They tend to react abusively when you ask them what poles they want in the pickups. 

FelineGuitars

jpfamps said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

I had a deranged and politically correct 'marketing expert' telling me that the use of the British flag on my website and packaging sent out the wrong message ... I ignored them. 

.

What was he thinking? That you were limiting yourself to the neo-fascist replacement pick up market?

Ash operates a "3 Reichs and you're out" policy?

Megii

Not keen on the design to be honest - it looks a bit clunky, and the lower cutaway looks too narrow to give the best access to the upper frets. Also on a 24 fret guitar, I'd want the neck pickup to be closer to the end of the fingerboard (ideally as close as possible), and on this guitar there is a bit of a gap. With the current market, if I was looking for a 2 pickup, 24 fret hardtail guitar, I'd be more likely to go for something like this Ibanez, 

http://www.reidys.com/pr/electric-guitars/ibanez-rg721rw-charcoal-brown-flat-17287/?&utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=Feed&utm_campaign=PriceComparison&catargetid=120170320000008028&cadevice=c&gclid=CLKU-bbswskCFSf4wgodpMkExw

and knowing I could then get some nice pickups made to suit, get a pro setup, and I'd still come in well below the £800 plus he's talking about. I think I'd have a great guitar that way, and with cleaner, sharper, more polished looks. I'm just being brutally honest, speaking as a potential guitar buyer - this, I guess, is the tough market for the small business guitar maker, that we're in.

OilCityPickups

jpfamps said: TheGuitarWeasel said:
I had a deranged and politically correct 'marketing expert' telling me that the use of the British flag on my website and packaging sent out the wrong message ... I ignored them. .

What was he thinking? That you were limiting yourself to the neo-fascist replacement pick up market?

Yup ... said it looked like a Britain First website! 

I pointed out that for years my father worked as an engineer in the British Hovercraft/GKN hanger, behind doors emblazoned with the biggest Union flag in the UK ... and that that both he and I are about as neo nazi as the average duck. 

PC gone nutty.

octatonic

monquixote said:

Much as I wish Ian well here I think the sums are badly wrong especially as the site claims that they are custom pieces. 

I just don't see how someone could sell a hand made guitar for less than about £1500 and make any money at all. 

Something no-one has mentioned is his is supplying a hard case as part of the deal.

A bare bones case is £40-50, a good one is £100.

jpfamps

I'm with Bill Hicks on marketing:

octatonic

jpfamps said:

I'm with Bill Hicks on marketing:

Oh, you're going for the I hate marketing approach?

That is a good approach, people like that.

fretmeister

jpfamps;883554" said:

fretmeister said:

Just a thought...

Never ever use your own name as the Business name.

If the company folds and you start up again, you can't use it again, and your name will always be linked to the failure of the original company.

"Smith & Sons Grocers" can get away with it because of the amount of "Smiths"

Far better to pick a name that can happily die with the company without tainting anything you do in the future.












Gibson, Martin, Marshall, Fender, Peavey, PRS........................

Completely different era. Even with PRS, and he was aiming at the "money no object" customer - not competing with companies who own dozens of high quality CNC machines who could crank out 500 bodies before lunchtime.

strtdv

I think if they were exceptional playing and sounding then enough people could get past the looks (not that it's ugly or anything) to have a good enough market.

The mid range market is very crowded at the moment (you can get some nice guitars from the big makers at that price, as well as the very top end of the Chinese and Korean made guitars), and IMO the profit just isn't there for a small builder to be sustainable at that price point (look what happened to Gordon Smith, and it was a fairly well known brand amongst guitarists).

Small builders are probably better off offering very exclusive and very well made custom instruments at the £1000+ mark which provides better profit margins and allows for lower production numbers.

monquixote

octatonic said:

monquixote said:

Much as I wish Ian well here I think the sums are badly wrong especially as the site claims that they are custom pieces. 

I just don't see how someone could sell a hand made guitar for less than about £1500 and make any money at all. 

Something no-one has mentioned is his is supplying a hard case as part of the deal.

A bare bones case is £40-50, a good one is £100.

Yeah I did notice that. 

octatonic

strtdv said:

Small builders are probably better off offering very exclusive and very well made custom instruments at the £1000+ mark which provides better profit margins and allows for lower production numbers.

I've run the numbers- it has to be double that for it to break even for a completely custom made instrument.

If there is a degree of standardisation (so less options compared to a fully custom made instrument) then we could be talking about somewhere in the order of £1600- but that would mean building bodies and necks in a production line style, and leaving the customising elements to components like bridges, pickups, tuners, possibly finishes.

The problem with electrics is the sheer cost of components- some bits are difficult or impossible to manufacture yourself if you are an independent luthier.

I can make acoustic guitar bridges all day but can I make a floyd rose or a vintage style bridge?

Not really- certainly not down to the same tolerances of a company like Gotoh.

So that leaves you having to buy in hardware.

The only way to do that is to buy in quantities that give you a discount, which means a lot of money tied up on hardware- that kills some businesses.

This is in partly why I am concentrating on acoustic guitars- there is more of my time that goes into an instrument, less money going out to hardware manufacturers.

I'll still build the odd electric.

Jookyjr

I really like them, and the headstock. They are fresh, with a hint of something old and quirky like a Shergold or something. The angry young man thing on his web site is OK too, though maybe a bit close to slagging the punters off at times.

The pricing is hard though, unless that is a guide using really cheap parts, which kind of kills the quality argument, it's going to be a big struggle, and the hardest thing is raising your prices over time. Always easier to charge high and then offer a deal.

 

Paul_C

When I started I sold the black Tele-style guitars for £750 (no case).

The price at that point reflected to some degree my awareness at my lack of experience and that they were stain/oil finished rather than lacquered.

I reckoned at the time that for a Tele built from scratch (i.e. not ready-made bodies or necks) with reasonable quality hardware (Gotoh or similar) and decent pickups (Seymour Duncan or equivalent) I was making around £4/hour, and that was in 2003.

Jez6345789

Well I am the first to applaud a new start up and frankly if I actually thought this would work I would happily write you a cheque for 20k to get you started.

As it constantly bugs me that we can't manage to produce stuff effectively in the Uk. Other countries seem to manage to do it and I would love to see a uk based firm really compete and produce for the home and export market.

I looked at all your stuff website video etc. What you need is friends to help you out with marketing as so far very little of it is appealing to potential customers.

Video is horrendous in this day and age it's fine being a passionate young man with the light of Jesus in your eyes for your new company. But talk from the heart not a script listing info about your product you come across as insincere. Get a friend to interview you and just talk with passion. Paul Reed Smith back in the old days was not much of a communicator but he never read from a script he was passionate and talked about what he loved. If your message is locally sourced, locally made, then say that people don't buy from rebel conspiracy, angry young men. They buy from passionate skilled luthiers who make guitars they like and who exists for a real reason. If you are going to sell at sub 1000 if thats actually doable then you dont need to sell like a market trader not going to charge 1000 not going charge you 800, we are going to charge you just xxx.  We are fairly and squarely in what marketing guys call the human era where people want a brand with passion and reality and a great story, at this point look around and see what people are actually doing. 

  There is no big conspiracy in the guitar world as your major premise is working musicians cannot get good instruments is long gone. I see loads of semi pro working club and pub guys playing JHS Wilkinson Vintage Strats they are cheap sound fine and with a quick setup they are as usable as any other strat a like. 

As has been said here the business model is very flawed and the numbers don't stack up and look around there is a literal mountain of quality guitars in the middle ground out there, ok few or none made in the uk. Yes the big names can put guitars in the market at that price point and I am talking US labour rate here not Asia think Les Paul studio etc but  they have the benefit of mass production cnc large wood and materials buying rates so they can squeeze the supply chain and keep costs low. 

As someone said here, building a telecaster to sell at that price would earn them £4.00 per hr.

I wish you the best of luck with this and if I can give you any pointers then feel free to message me ultimately I doubt a kick starter will get funded as there is little to demonstrate either your experience of turning a couple of hand made prototypes into a working production guitar and your message is very mixed hand built v mass production. 

blueskunk

Cool guy ^^^