Ian Elson guitars (new UK brand)

Jaden

Jez6345789 said:

Well I am the first to applaud a new start up and frankly if I actually thought this would work I would happily write you a cheque for 20k to get you started.

As it constantly bugs me that we can't manage to produce stuff effectively in the Uk. Other countries seem to manage to do it and I would love to see a uk based firm really compete and produce for the home and export market.

I can already do it, wanna write me that cheque

OilCityPickups

Jaden said:

Jez6345789 said:

Well I am the first to applaud a new start up and frankly if I actually thought this would work I would happily write you a cheque for 20k to get you started.

As it constantly bugs me that we can't manage to produce stuff effectively in the Uk. Other countries seem to manage to do it and I would love to see a uk based firm really compete and produce for the home and export market.

I can already do it, wanna write me that cheque

Ten grand each mate ... I export to most of Europe and the USA and Australia ;-) 

TTony

It'd be interesting if @IanElsonGuitars replied to the various comments on the thread.

Putting aside the question of whether the aesthetics of the design (beauty is in the eye, etc), there are plenty of other comments that are - to my reading - reasonably constructive in their criticism.  

ToneControl

to me the shape looks like it's been designed to be easy to machine, rather than being ergonomic or including organic curves - think about modern sporty cars compared to the more boxy rectangular cars of 20-30 years ago

OilCityPickups

TTony said:

It'd be interesting if @IanElsonGuitars replied to the various comments on the thread.

Putting aside the question of whether the aesthetics of the design (beauty is in the eye, etc), there are plenty of other comments that are - to my reading - reasonably constructive in their criticism.  

All of in the British musical manufacture industry welcome new blood  ... we want to see it succeed, not fall at the first hurdle. :-) 

Jez6345789

I am glad your both doing well Jaden and Ash and flying the flag on exports. I am looking for a retirement project but not found it and was simply trying to convey to Mr Elson that you hit something right people will invest and more than you ask for. Ultimately I am in love with the west coast start up model rapid dev, turn an idea into prototype in 7 days or can it. Get it in front of the money or get it to market. No procrastination shoot high and fail fast and move on, if it sticks great if not no stigma move on. If your not selling in 3 months your dead. I would love to find that spirit with start ups here. I might have been a little harsh but if you want to stand out these days you need a great story, you need passion and you need people to believe in it. The did you know your being ripped of stance just does not play. Anyway I am a quiet fan of Ash's enterprise and I never hear bad about Jayden's guitars so if I understate your good work I apologise.

OilCityPickups

Jez6345789 said:

I am glad your both doing well Jaden and Ash and flying the flag on exports. I am looking for a retirement project but not found it and was simply trying to convey to Mr Elson that you hit something right people will invest and more than you ask for. Ultimately I am in love with the west coast start up model rapid dev, turn an idea into prototype in 7 days or can it. Get it in front of the money or get it to market. No procrastination shoot high and fail fast and move on, if it sticks great if not no stigma move on. If your not selling in 3 months your dead. I would love to find that spirit with start ups here. I might have been a little harsh but if you want to stand out these days you need a great story, you need passion and you need people to believe in it. The did you know your being ripped of stance just does not play. Anyway I am a quiet fan of Ash's enterprise and I never hear bad about Jayden's guitars so if I understate your good work I apologise.

Bare Knuckle has trail blazed with getting British pickups accepted both in this country and now worldwide, and I don't think one could say they were an overnight success. Development takes much longer if you are a small company starved of funds ... and the the west coast model can't I feel be applied to musical instruments, pickups or pedals ... all of which need specialist knowledge and R&D to bring to market.

I agree with you need passion and a great 'story' ... but you also need technical competence, a great product and above all ... a unique selling point.

You also need luck ... 

Flink_Poyd

I hope Ian still reads this even if he doesn't reply, there are valid points in here that he could consider.
It's a difficult market to crack, established big companies and smaller builders, like any business, find it tough but that also proves it can be done.
It's hard to ignore the numbers side of things, even of you were making £200 profit per guitar you need to sell 7 or 8 a month to make minimum wage. Demand needs to be there to start. Is there enough to keep you going to make this full time?

Kickstarter funding can be a great way, a lot of the time it falls flat. £11k for equipment isn't a lot, it's personal loan territory. I wouldn't expect a bank to fund a business loan as the risk of failure is too high.

Designs can be changed, refined or altered. You're making guitars for customers,not just yourself. The collaborative design by forum is being put to use already by Rob Chapman, it works for him as he has a following and presence already. A forum for an unknown builder will be very difficult to populate and grow as it's such a niche.

You need unique selling point, something that sets you apart. IMO this is the most important and difficult aspect. People have to buy your products for a reason, something that's been missing from everything else's they have already.

Website looks cheap and amateur as mentioned, easy to fix.

Good luck

Sync

The only way you will make this work is if you get professional musicians to play your commissions at gigs.

Doesn't have to be a massive band etc but visible enough.

There is no other magic marketing formula in the current market place as it is well saturated. Make amazing guitars, get them played and seen. Then over 5-10 years build up the business, reputation and production volumes.

What you are proposing won't work otherwise. You will have to put volume of sales over qc and the moment qc suffers, even an tiny bit, your business model vs mass production dies overnight.

Make 5-10 guitars per year, if that, and hold down a different decent paying job whilst you build up the reputation.

Adamski

I'm not sure who we're talking to anymore.....

Jaden

Adamski said:

I'm not sure who we're talking to anymore.....

all still pretty relevant.. Ian may be googling "west coat startup" or similar.. other organisations and their route to market have been cited..

Ash is right, the west coast model isnt really applicable, the R&D / continuous improvement can easliy take up all your time, then you have new model development without even thinking about current production..

IanElsonGuitar

I've listened to and read every comment...so thank you for that. A lot of people have told me what I can and can't do, what I should do and where I will go wrong without asking me a single question which is disappointing. The really helpful people have messaged me or emailed me and we have had proper discussions. That has been the most constructive. So many people on here have used it to do just the opposite. I didn't post myself on here but that doesn't really matter...every constructive opinion is appreciated...as I'm sure you can understand, a discussion isn't one person shouting an opinion at another person and then sticking their fingers in their ears. It's a shame that this thread has become so vitriolic as it has made it very difficult to respond in a way I would have liked but the private messages, some positive some not so positive, have been the most useful so thank you. Conservative opinion about how guitars "should" be is one thing but it has to be open for debate with an open mind or nothing progresses. Thanks again

OilCityPickups

IanElsonGuitar said:

I've listened to and read every comment...so thank you for that. A lot of people have told me what I can and can't do, what I should do and where I will go wrong without asking me a single question which is disappointing. The really helpful people have messaged me or emailed me and we have had proper discussions. That has been the most constructive. So many people on here have used it to do just the opposite. I didn't post myself on here but that doesn't really matter...every constructive opinion is appreciated...as I'm sure you can understand, a discussion isn't one person shouting an opinion at another person and then sticking their fingers in their ears. It's a shame that this thread has become so vitriolic as it has made it very difficult to respond in a way I would have liked but the private messages, some positive some not so positive, have been the most useful so thank you. Conservative opinion about how guitars "should" be is one thing but it has to be open for debate with an open mind or nothing progresses. Thanks again

Personally I wouldn't have described any of the posts as vitriolic Ian ... but then I have gotten pretty used to this place. 

When I first became part of this little community ... back in the days when it was the Music Radar forum I had my own baptism of fire ... but have come to regard it as a very useful market research tool ... and full of an awful lot of nice people. 

Personally I hope you will stick around. 

TTony

Thanks for the reply @IanElsonGuitar.

I'm an admin here and one of the founders of the site.  I'm a strong supporter of the "Made in the UK" industry, and have supported a number of nascent businesses with ££s - it's why we have that exact section on this forum - so I'm always interested in hearing about new UK ventures, and ever hopeful that each new one will be successful.

I've watched your video.  I've read the EDP article.

IanElsonGuitar said:

A lot of people have told me what I can and can't do, what I should do and where I will go wrong without asking me a single question which is disappointing.

Actually, you're wrong.

This is a forum, it's for discussion.  

You write a post with your thoughts and someone - in this case, many people - reply with theirs.  Those replies are the prompt for further discussion (ie your replies).  Those initial responses to your post are questions.  The posts might not have "?" at the end, but whether its formal Q&A or a discussion thread, it's exactly the same process to exchange views & opinions and develop understanding.

People have not been telling you want you can or can't do - they've been expressing opinions and waiting for your responses.

The sharing of thoughts & opinions is what makes the forum so powerful - for all parties.

IanElsonGuitar said:

I didn't post myself on here 

Ermmm, I don't want to be pedantic, but you did.  It might have been in response to someone else starting a thread about your new venture (in response to your messages to him on bookface to promote your business), but you did become a member here, and you did post more detail about your venture.

IanElsonGuitar said:

a discussion isn't one person shouting an opinion at another person and then sticking their fingers in their ears

Precisely.  I do get the impression that you've read some opinions in response to your post, and are close to sticking your own fingers in your own ears though - your last post is more dismissive than discussive. 

Take time to read the posts again, try to depersonalise them (which is tough - it's your baby), and respond to the main points - there are many points in there that are genuinely constructive, if also critical.

IanElsonGuitar said:

It's a shame that this thread has become so vitriolic 

I've just re-read the whole thread again.

It's really not vitriolic.  Sure, there are some critical comments, but the vast majority have been constructive criticism, and even the critical posts have been supportive.  If you've aiming to launch a real business, then you'll have to deal with far more painful comments that you've read in this thread.

IanElsonGuitar said:

Conservative opinion about how guitars "should" be is one thing but it has to be open for debate with an open mind or nothing progresses.

Again, in total agreement with you.  This thread would be exactly that (a debate) if you contribute to it.

Over to you.

Jaden

you should go on the KTM forum, brutal

I didnt get the impression it was vitriolic or overly opinionated against your design etc.

your brand startup was brought to the forums attention, you already put a lot of information out there and it was commented on.. 

I still get it now, just look at the position of the switch on my Original Series, it certainly draws opinions.

Jaden

TTony said:

Thanks for the reply @IanElsonGuitar.

I'm an admin here and one of the founders of the site.  I'm a strong supporter of the "Made in the UK" industry, and have supported a number of nascent businesses with ££s - it's why we have that exact section on this forum - so I'm always interested in hearing about new UK ventures, and ever hopeful that each new one will be successful.

I've watched your video.  I've read the EDP article.

IanElsonGuitar said:

A lot of people have told me what I can and can't do, what I should do and where I will go wrong without asking me a single question which is disappointing.

Actually, you're wrong.

This is a forum, it's for discussion.  

You write a post with your thoughts and someone - in this case, many people - reply with theirs.  Those replies are the prompt for further discussion (ie your replies).  Those initial responses to your post are questions.  The posts might not have "?" at the end, but whether its formal Q&A or a discussion thread, it's exactly the same process to exchange views & opinions and develop understanding.

People have not been telling you want you can or can't do - they've been expressing opinions and waiting for your responses.

The sharing of thoughts & opinions is what makes the forum so powerful - for all parties.

IanElsonGuitar said:

I didn't post myself on here 

Ermmm, I don't want to be pedantic, but you did.  It might have been in response to someone else starting a thread about your new venture (in response to your messages to him on bookface to promote your business), but you did become a member here, and you did post more detail about your venture.

IanElsonGuitar said:

a discussion isn't one person shouting an opinion at another person and then sticking their fingers in their ears

Precisely.  I do get the impression that you've read some opinions in response to your post, and are close to sticking your own fingers in your own ears though - your last post is more dismissive than discussive. 

Take time to read the posts again, try to depersonalise them (which is tough - it's your baby), and respond to the main points - there are many points in there that are genuinely constructive, if also critical.

IanElsonGuitar said:

It's a shame that this thread has become so vitriolic 

I've just re-read the whole thread again.

It's really not vitriolic.  Sure, there are some critical comments, but the vast majority have been constructive criticism, and even the critical posts have been supportive.  If you've aiming to launch a real business, then you'll have to deal with far more painful comments that you've read in this thread.

IanElsonGuitar said:

Conservative opinion about how guitars "should" be is one thing but it has to be open for debate with an open mind or nothing progresses.

Again, in total agreement with you.  This thread would be exactly that (a debate) if you contribute to it.

Over to you.

be wisom'd..

fretmeister

If this thread is vitriolic then a bank manager refusing a loan must be a threat to kill children.

Sync

IanElsonGuitar;885531" said:

I've listened to and read every comment...so thank you for that. A lot of people have told me what I can and can't do, what I should do and where I will go wrong without asking me a single question which is disappointing.....

It's a shame that this thread has become so vitriolic as it has made it very difficult to respond in a way I would have liked....

Hey Ian,

Some on here are pro musicians, some are well known and regarded luthiers, some are business owners/execs with a wealth of business knowledge, all would be your potential customers.

You have been given some invaluable advice much of which has a common theme. I would say the most pertinent and blunt advice has come from sound sources. Vitriolic no, direct and to the point yes.

In summary

0) no one has really said don't do it but have identified the pitfalls (and there are lots)
1) some aren't too keen on your design at the moment some are OK with it, I don't think anyone loves it though (which ultimately is a big issue)
2) a robust appreciation of the UK and value of made in the Uk market place is needed
3) at your price you won't make enough profit to survive, many have tried and failed. You will also cheapen your brand long term
4) the competition make great mass produced guitars in this budget and you are competing with well established and well resourced brands including USA made Gibsons and Fenders
5) luthiers need to get strong visibility of the product
6) its a tough job with poor money and takes many years to get somewhere
7) your website and videos are poor (this gives a bad impression and is an easy fix) so you could just use social media etc initially

Think of this thread as a free swat analysis and market research exercise that you could have genuinely paid 10k for.

If you havent already, consider getting someone like guitarbuild to supply the wood and machine the bodies and necks for you to spec and you could make this very viable.

p90fool

I don't see any vitriol here, just honest opinions. Even if you violently disagree with some of them it's extremely valuable to hear what potential customers are really thinking, certainly more so than a polite pat on the head and a "that's nice dear".

Good luck with it anyway, this place is actually a very useful resource for British builders as long as you can take the (frankly not very) rough with the smooth.

TTony

Sync said:

Think of this thread as a free swat analysis and market research exercise that you could have genuinely paid 10k for.

We just keep on missing those business opportunities ...

But you're spot on.  Friends & family are great for support and encouragement, but - generally - not a lot of use when it comes to the critical input.  

"You've got to be cruel to be kind"