EU Referendum Vote - Poll

TTony

Chalky said:

Do you accept the fact that successive French and German governments have restated their intention of closer union? It is what they sincerely want. And it is what they will achieve.

Please stop pretending that you can change their minds on this.

The Germans have been trying for more than 100 years now, one way or another.  Can't see them changing their minds anytime soon.

ICBM

Chalky said:

Do you accept the fact that successive French and German governments have restated their intention of closer union? It is what they sincerely want. And it is what they will achieve.

Please stop pretending that you can change their minds on this.

I accept it's what their governments have said, because they have. But it will never get past their populations. Can you honestly see the French and the Germans agreeing to change their national identities?

Fretwired said:

To establish EU citizenship first you need to create an EU State. One state, one flag, one anthem, one passport, one army, one president, one foreign secretary and presumably one seat at the UN (to assert Europe's role in the world).

No you don't. You can be a citizen of the EU *and* a citizen of a nation state at the same time.

This is exactly what I mean about Leave campaign scaremongering - you accuse the Remain campaign of it regarding the economics (possibly rightly, although I agree that no-one really knows) but you're at least as bad regarding the politics.

A United States of Europe with a common language, government, army etc will not happen. If it did, it would be because the people of Europe want it to, and at that point it would be a good thing.

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

Chalky said:

Do you accept the fact that successive French and German governments have restated their intention of closer union? It is what they sincerely want. And it is what they will achieve.

Please stop pretending that you can change their minds on this.

I accept it's what their governments have said, because they have. But it will never get past their populations. Can you honestly see the French and the Germans agreeing to change their national identities?

Oh aye, not like the Germans have ever agreed to fascist policies before!!

crunchman

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

The decision is simple:

Vote Remain if you want closer integration with the EU, more laws made by an unelected elite in Brussels, no control over our borders and ultimately the Euro replacing the pound.

Vote Leave is you want the UK to be able to govern itself as an independent nation.

The economics are irrelevant as nobody knows with any certainty what will happen if we remain or leave.

Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

I'm also unconvinced by the scaremongering about further European integration. The wheels are starting to come off that anyway.

The third one, I will give you.

The EU is governed by international corporations - at least indirectly.  The Commission is where the real power is and look at what they have been up to - TTIP.

All the rules about the European Journal and public sector contracts are there to benefit big corporations who can negotiate the bureacracy and keep smaller local companies out.

Drew_TNBD

> Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

That's as much a jump as what Fret is saying about one unified EU.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

No you don't. You can be a citizen of the EU *and* a citizen of a nation state at the same time.

That's what we have at the moment. The legal concept of citizenship of the (European) Union was formally introduced into the EC Treaty in 1993 by the Treaty of Maastricht. So we are EU citizens and UK citizens. The plan going forward to remove state citizenship - it is actually meaningless if you are pro EU. To do that you have to create the concept of the EU State which is the next step. Countries and national governments still exist but we'd all have EU passports and would be citizens of the EU. This can happen pretty quickly - it will help cement the EU as a large bloc with political as well as economic clout. All this is on the EU website.

ICBM

crunchman said:

The EU is governed by international corporations - at least indirectly.  The Commission is where the real power is and look at what they have been up to - TTIP.

Which is about to get stopped by the French. *Our* government is in favour, and will no doubt sign something near enough identical if we leave.

Fretwired said:

That's what we have at the moment. The legal concept of citizenship of the (European) Union was formally introduced into the EC Treaty in 1993 by the Treaty of Maastricht. So we are EU citizens and UK citizens.

Exactly, so why do you need a superstate to achieve it? And why do you need to leave to avoid it?

Fretwired said:

The plan going forward to remove state citizenship

Scaremongering. No national population will accept that.

Fretwired said:

All this is on the EU website.

It may well be, but what the Eurocrats want and what any nation state will accept are completely different things.

Look at how the French and Germans already simply ignore the rules they don't like. The bizarre thing is how readily we implement them to the letter...

Modulus_Amps

ICBM said:

No you don't. You can be a citizen of the EU *and* a citizen of a nation state at the same time

You can also be a citizen of more than one country, I am, but there is no point arguing about the semantics of what we believe citizenship to be, it will be The EU that will decide exactly what that means when they come to it.

The EU already has a flag and Anthem......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_-KoBiBG0

ICBM said:

A United States of Europe with a common language, government, army etc will not happen. If it did, it would be because the people of Europe want it to, and at that point it would be a good thing.

Except for common language, I think the issue is that the EU does appear to be moving towards this and the voices of the people are not being heard, it is not going to happen tomorrow, but in 20 years maybe. Of course this is all conjecture, but the point is that the EU that GB voted to join in 71/75? is not the same EU of today and will be different again tomorrow.

Phil_aka_Pip

ICBM said:

Look at how the French and Germans already simply ignore the rules they don't like. The bizarre thing is how readily we implement them to the letter...

How true. I think that if our successive governments had cherry-picked the EU rules in the way that other countries' governments have, the Leave campaign would be a lot weaker.

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

The EU already has a flag and Anthem

So does the International Olympic Committee. Perhaps they're about to become an evil superstate too?

Chalky

Aw c'mon @ICBM - folks are giving you factual evidence of what the EU, French and German governments have stated consistently for what, over 20 years? And your argument is "But they don't mean it." )

Modulus_Amps

ICBM said:

Modulus_Amps said:

The EU already has a flag and Anthem

So does the International Olympic Committee. Perhaps they're about to become an evil superstate too?

I think they are lagging behind somewhat... the flag and the anthem are the easy things to put in place....

Fretwired

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

The EU is governed by international corporations - at least indirectly.  The Commission is where the real power is and look at what they have been up to - TTIP.

Which is about to get stopped by the French. *Our* government is in favour, and will no doubt sign something near enough identical if we leave.

Fretwired said:

That's what we have at the moment. The legal concept of citizenship of the (European) Union was formally introduced into the EC Treaty in 1993 by the Treaty of Maastricht. So we are EU citizens and UK citizens.

Exactly, so why do you need a superstate to achieve it? And why do you need to leave to avoid it?

Fretwired said:

The plan going forward to remove state citizenship

Scaremongering. No national population will accept that.

Fretwired said:

All this is on the EU website.

It may well be, but what the Eurocrats want and what any nation state will accept are completely different things.

Look at how the French and Germans already simply ignore the rules they don't like. The bizarre thing is how readily we implement them to the letter...

Last time I checked the EU doesn't ask the populations of Europe what they want. With regards to citizenship and passports I think you're wrong. I think a high proportion of EU citizens would be quite happy with it. Watch Paxman's BBC documentary. He interviewed young people in Germany, Netherlands, Italy etc - they saw themselves as EU citizens and wanted an EU superstate as there would be no more war and petty nationalistic politics. An EU superstate would be able to stand up to China and the US.

This actually doesn't bother me. I want out for one reason. I want laws that affect me to be made by people I vote for and if I don't like them then every 5 years I can vote for a different party.

If we vote to remain by a big margin then I think we need to swallow the bullet and take the Euro and get ourselves a seat on the top table. There will be no British EU president without us being in the Eurozone. If we really want to reform the EU then we have to be in the Eurozone. Those who think we can remain and continue cherry pick what we like and what we don't like are delusional.

I think if we remain things will change quite fast (10 years) as the older Eurosceptic's die and today's young people embrace the EU. It's all they've ever known and the EU is good at promoting itself. Before the EU we had no human rights, workers rights, benefits etc. It's all down to the EU ... people who should know better spout this crap.

And there will be an EU army. Merkel has said so and France and Germany have advanced plans in place.

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

> Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

That's as much a jump as what Fret is saying about one unified EU.

I know .

The point is that for every scare story about what the scheming EU wants to accomplish, there's an equivalent about what will happen if we leave. For every overly optimistic assumption about how benign the EU is, there is an equivalent about how easy it will be for us to make 'our own way in the world'. But the Leave campaign seem to be constantly crying 'scaremonger' about anything the Remain camp says, when in fact the reverse is at least equally true.

The EU in twenty years will probably be different than it is today, but I would take a bet that it won't be as much of an 'ever closer union' as the Eurocrats want - because the concept is starting to run into serious resistance from the people, as well as practical difficulties with the weaker economies.

What I really believe is that the people of Europe have ideals and culture far more like ours than we think they do, or that the Americans actually do, because we are divided by a language difference with Europe but not with America. And if we do leave, it's certain that we will become closer to America - we will have no choice.

I don't think staying in the EU is an easy, perfect solution - it certainly isn't. But I don't think leaving is any better, and is more likely to be worse.

Chalky said:

Aw c'mon @ICBM - folks are giving you factual evidence of what the EU, French and German governments have stated consistently for what, over 20 years? And your argument is "But they don't mean it." )

Are you actually reading what I've said? The governments have stated it and may well mean it.

Show me the factual evidence - not Leave campaign propaganda - that it can ever be put into practice.

The French have broken ranks over TTIP now they've realised it will compromise their national interest. The Germans will do the same when there is a similar issue which affects them in the same way.

The French and German *people* are never going to accept sharing a single state, any more than we would with either of them.

TTony

ICBM said:

Modulus_Amps said:

The EU already has a flag and Anthem

So does the International Olympic Committee. Perhaps they're about to become an evil superstate too?

They're amateurs - it'll never work.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Are you actually reading what I've said? The governments have stated it and may well mean it.

Show me the factual evidence - not Leave campaign propaganda - that it can ever be put into practice.

The French and German *people* are never going to accept sharing a single state, any more than we would with either of them.

Oh yeah ....

Plans for a United States of Europe have been drawn up by leading EU politicians. A document signed last September (2015) in Rome by the speakers of the national parliaments in Germany, France, Italy and Luxembourg calls for the creation of a full blown “federal union of states”.

The paper says that “concrete proposals” to deepen EU integration will be drawn up at a meeting in Luxembourg next month, raising the prospect of a new row about powers leaching to Brussels ahead of the referendum on June 23.

The joint declaration states: “We are convinced that new impetus must be given to European integration. We believe that more, not less, Europe is needed to respond to the challenges we face.” It says that deeper integration “should not be limited to the field of economic and fiscal matters, or to the internal market and to agricultural policy. It should include all matters pertaining to the European ideal — social and cultural affairs as well as foreign, security and defence policy.”

It adds: “The current moment offers an opportunity to move forward with European political integration, which could lead to a federal union of States.”

ICBM

Fretwired said:

This actually doesn't bother me. I want out for one reason. I want laws that affect me to be made by people I vote for and if I don't like them then every 5 years I can vote for a different party.

And if you're one of the 60% or so who typically don't vote for the party that "wins" the election, then tough. That applies as much if you're a Tory who didn't vote for Blair as it does if you're a lefty who didn't vote for Cameron.

If that's the *only* reason, is it worth leaving just so you can get governments you don't vote for anyway?

And yes, I do really think the governments are out of step with the people of many of the other nations too. Seeing themselves as part of a larger European Union in order to preserve peace and prosperity is a very different thing from giving up national identity.

Emp_Fab

What pisses me off is this 'in, but not really in' approach the UK has had all along.  They make noises about being 'fully integrated into Europe' etc, blah blah blah, but when it boils down to it, we still have the Pound, we have all sorts of exceptions in our membership that other countries don't.  We're NOT properly in the European Union as other countries are.  Successive British governments have tried to be all things to all people and sit on the fence with one foot in the Eurozone but the other firmly fixed in Blighty.

This vote really shouldn't be between leaving the EU or staying as we are, it should be between being OUT properly, or IN properly - with everything that entails - including ditching the pound.  Stop dicking about and make a bloody commitment either way, Westminster.

Chalky

ICBM;1096277" said:

Drew_fx said:

>



Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.



That's as much a jump as what Fret is saying about one unified EU.










I know .

The point is that for every scare story about what the scheming EU wants to accomplish, there's an equivalent about what will happen if we leave. For every overly optimistic assumption about how benign the EU is, there is an equivalent about how easy it will be for us to make 'our own way in the world'. But the Leave campaign seem to be constantly crying 'scaremonger' about anything the Remain camp says, when in fact the reverse is at least equally true.

The EU in twenty years will probably be different than it is today, but I would take a bet that it won't be as much of an 'ever closer union' as the Eurocrats want - because the concept is starting to run into serious resistance from the people, as well as practical difficulties with the weaker economies.

What I really believe is that the people of Europe have ideals and culture far more like ours than we think they do, or that the Americans actually do, because we are divided by a language difference with Europe but not with America. And if we do leave, it's certain that we will become closer to America - we will have no choice.

I don't think staying in the EU is an easy, perfect solution - it certainly isn't. But I don't think leaving is any better, and is more likely to be worse.




Chalky said:

Aw c'mon @ICBM - folks are giving you factual evidence of what the EU, French and German governments have stated consistently for what, over 20 years? And your argument is "But they don't mean it." )





Are you actually reading what I've said? The governments have stated it and may well mean it.

Show me the factual evidence - not Leave campaign propaganda - that it can ever be put into practice.

The French have broken ranks over TTIP now they've realised it will compromise their national interest. The Germans will do the same when there is a similar issue which affects them in the same way.

The French and German *people* are never going to accept sharing a single state, any more than we would with either of them.

Sorry @ICBM but I'm old enough to remember precisely your same argument being used before. "The French will NEVER surrender the French Franc!" No way. Never happen.

But it did. Now tell me that's not a fact...

Fretwired

Emp_Fab said:

What pisses me off is this 'in, but not really in' approach the UK has had all along.  They make noises about being 'fully integrated into Europe' etc, blah blah blah, but when it boils down to it, we still have the Pound, we have all sorts of exceptions in our membership that other countries don't.  We're NOT properly in the European Union as other countries are.  Successive British governments have tried to be all things to all people and sit on the fence with one foot in the Eurozone but the other firmly fixed in Blighty.

This vote really shouldn't be between leaving the EU or staying as we are, it should be between being OUT properly, or IN properly - with everything that entails - including ditching the pound.  Stop dicking about and make a bloody commitment either way, Westminster.

^^

Have a wis @Emp_Fab .... I totally agree .. would make the vote interesting.