EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Drew_TNBD

And you can't win with you guys - you say "stay in so we can affect change" yet you take the piss when people (IE: UKIP) try to do exactly that.

Chalky

Drew_fx;1100010" said:

And you can't win with you guys - you say "stay in so we can affect change" yet you take the piss when people (IE: UKIP) try to do exactly that.

Yes but people like you and me don't understand that whilst the French and Germans have ignored us for decades in EU decisions, they are now going to listen to us if we vote Remain! The reason for their change of heart? Because......er......well......er......it must be a Super Secret Reason!

Go on @UnclePsychosis, tell us why they will listen to us and so enable 'change from within'!

UnclePsychosis

Chalky;1100009" said:

[quote="UnclePsychosis;1099946"]The only British MEPs using it as a "gravy train" are the UKIP ones like Farage who are happy to trouser hundreds of thousands in return for not turning up to meetings or engaging with the process.

It's little wonder people think that the EU doesnt respect the UK when we send them guys like him. He was a member of the fisheries committee and didn't attend a single meeting about it for two entire years. When taken to task about it in the parliament he just sat and laughed (there's a video somewhere).

I'm sure that's the reason. Personality clashes.

Nothing to do with the fundamental difference in the ideological belief of the future state of the EU. No.

You realise you are making your EU chums sound petty?[/quote]

you think they should respect a guy who takes home a massive salary and attends literally zero committee meetings in at least two years?

Do you think Farage trousering hundreds of thousands in return for fuck all helps the UK to get what the country needs?

hungrymark

Yeah, I'm with @Drew_fx. I'm not a supporter but UKIP aren't inherently xenophobic, and membership of that party doesn't make you a xenophobe.

UnclePsychosis

Chalky;1100022" said:

[quote="Drew_fx;1100010"]And you can't win I with you guys - you say "stay in so we can affect change" yet you take the piss when people (IE: UKIP) try to do exactly that.

Go on @UnclePsychosis, tell us why they will listen to us and so enable 'change from within'![/quote]

Maybe the people who aren't happy with the way things work could try something novel, like actually turning up and stuff. It's fairly hard to have your voice heard when you can't even be arsed going to the meetings in the first place.

eSully

well. Anyone accusing the Beeb of remain bias should watch Andrew Neil's interview with Hilary Benn that was Just on BBC 1. Andrew gave benn a pretty torrid time I thought. It was kinda funny seeing Benns face drop every time AN used a Corbyn quote against him

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Apologies if this has already been mentioned (19 pages...too much, even for me), but I'm still baffled by the assertion that the EU is run by unelected, unaccountable people.

Look at it...

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

I don't want to be rude but you are being naive. The MEPs can't make or recommend law. They merely vote but most follow what their governments tell them - the laws are made further up the food change. I can tell you we have zero influence. On laws we didn't agree with (as in rubber stamp) where we recommended changes we were voted down 100 per cent of the time.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

Apologies if this has already been mentioned (19 pages...too much, even for me), but I'm still baffled by the assertion that the EU is run by unelected, unaccountable people.

Look at it...

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

I don't want to be rude but you are being naive. The MEPs can't make or recommend law. They merely vote but most follow what their governments tell them - the laws are made further up the food change. I can tell you we have zero influence. On laws we didn't agree with (as in rubber stamp) where we recommended changes we were voted down 100 per cent of the time.

You're not being rude, you're deliberately removing the context for the quote where I actually said exactly that in order to make your point.

digitalscream said:

European Council - all the heads of government (which, given that every country has representative democracy in place, means that they were elected by the population)

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

European Commission - this is the one people usually mean, because they aren't elected. However, they can only propose laws, and are bound to enact the decisions of the European Parliament whether they agree with it or not. Basically, they're civil servants for the EU.

If the MEPs vote for what their governments tell them to, then that is democracy in action. They're representing the views of the people that we voted into power.

The fact that we've been voted down is still democracy in action, but on a Union scale rather than on a national scale.

You're actually demonstrating precisely what I said here:

digitalscream said:

My only conclusion is that people are confusing "unelected" with "elected people who don't agree with me".

Fretwired

UnclePsychosis said:

Gove caught telling big fat fibs again.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/about/blog/346

Not a Gove fan but how on Earth can he be lying? He thinks X the IFS thinks Y. Both are estimates/assumptions .. neither are cast iron facts. The IFS agrees with his £8 billion figure but makes assumptions as to what might happen. Gove may be optimistic but he could be right. The IFS could be right and Gove could be made to look stupid. However, only hindsight with provide us with insight.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Gove caught telling big fat fibs again.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/about/blog/346

Not a Gove fan but how on Earth can he be lying? He thinks X the IFS thinks Y. Both are estimates/assumptions .. neither are cast iron facts. The IFS agrees with his £8 billion figure but makes assumptions as to what might happen. Gove may be optimistic but he could be right. The IFS could be right and Gove could be made to look stupid. However, only hindsight with provide us with insight.

Because he said that the IFS supported his position, which is the exact opposite of what they said. He lied about what they'd actually said in order to make his position sound more authoritative.

Seriously, are you so entrenched in your position that you refuse to read what's right in front of you?

Emp_Fab

Well, I stand corrected - or at least admit to being fleeced by the propaganda about unelected officials.  

After careful reconsideration, I have decided to stick with my plan to vote Leave because of the fact that we are a very popular destination for folk to come and work - far more popular than other countries are for us to go and work.  With the exception of France, there are more EU citizens in the UK than vice-versa :- http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354  Massively so in some cases - e.g. 883,000 Poles in the UK vs 35,000 Brits in Poland etc.

This applies to every country in the EU (bar the French) - everyone seems to be flocking here to work, and that can only have one outcome on wages.

chillidoggy

UnclePsychosis said:

Chalky;1100022" said:

[quote="Drew_fx;1100010"]And you can't win I with you guys - you say "stay in so we can affect change" yet you take the piss when people (IE: UKIP) try to do exactly that.

Go on @UnclePsychosis, tell us why they will listen to us and so enable 'change from within'![/quote]

Maybe the people who aren't happy with the way things work could try something novel, like actually turning up and stuff. It's fairly hard to have your voice heard when you can't even be arsed going to the meetings in the first place.

You haven't really answered Chalky's question, though.

Call me Dave has already had a good go, and got nowhere. If we vote to remain, what chance have we got of changing a thing? Bugger all it seems to me, and once we vote to remain then the floodgates are open for the EU mandarins to foist whatever they desire on us.

digitalscream

Emp_Fab said:

Well, I stand corrected - or at least admit to being fleeced by the propaganda about unelected officials.  

After careful reconsideration, I have decided to stick with my plan to vote Leave because of the fact that we are a very popular destination for folk to come and work - far more popular than other countries are for us to go and work.  With the exception of France, there are more EU citizens in the UK than vice-versa :- http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354  Massively so in some cases - e.g. 883,000 Poles in the UK vs 35,000 Brits in Poland etc.

This applies to every country in the EU (bar the French) - everyone seems to be flocking here to work, and that can only have one outcome on wages.

Comparing expats country-by-country is irrelevant, really - and if you wanted to go down that route, you could just as easily talk about the 790,000 British citizens in Spain thanks to the free travel across EU borders, versus the 50k Spaniards in Britain.

Modulus_Amps

@Snap said:

I'm pretty much decided on Remain, but I'm waivering a bit, the more I read about the likelihood of single market/equivalent membership. That, for me, mitigates a lot of the risk of leaving.

Have a look at this list, the three European countries not in the EU are at the top of the list, with Norway and Switzerland right at the top of the list and Iceland has better performance than the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GNI_%28PPP%29_per_capita

I find it concerning the massive difference between the top and the bottom countries, not exactly evenly yoked.

This is interesting about Iceland, specifically that the majority of trade is with the EU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iceland#External_trade

I think being part of the single market is almost a sure thing as it benefits both the UK and Europe. (I reserve the right to retract that statement at any time in the future BTW)

quarky

digitalscream said:

European Commission - this is the one people usually mean, because they aren't elected. However, they can only propose laws, and are bound to enact the decisions of the European Parliament whether they agree with it or not. Basically, they're civil servants for the EU.

My only conclusion is that people are confusing "unelected" with "elected people who don't agree with me".

They do a bit more than that.

What does the Commission do?

Proposes new laws

The Commission is the sole EU institution tabling laws for adoption by the Parliament and the Council that:

• protect the interests of the EU and its citizens on issues that can't be dealt with effectively at national level;
• get technical details right by consulting experts and the public.

Manages EU policies & allocates EU funding

• Sets EU spending priorities, together with the Council and Parliament.
• Draws up annual budgets for approval by the Parliament and Council.
• Supervises how the money is spent, under scrutiny by the Court of Auditors.

Enforces EU law

• Together with the Court of Justice, ensures that EU law is properly applied in all the member countries.

Represents the EU internationally

• Speaks on behalf of all EU countries in international bodies, in particular in areas of trade policy and humanitarian aid.
• Negotiates international agreements for the EU.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission/index_en.htm

Of course that doesn't mention (very convenient) their powers to monitor, supervise, and ask the EU to direct national economies following the Euro crisis, as they have done. The Commission is also the entity that is currently investigating Google from memory.4

Not an inconsequential amount of power for the unelected.

digitalscream

@quarky - all of those things are covered under "...propose laws, and...enact the decisions of the European Parliament". They can't act unilaterally, they can't set laws and everything they do is subject to approval by the European Council and Parliament.

chillidoggy

digitalscream said:

Emp_Fab said:

Well, I stand corrected - or at least admit to being fleeced by the propaganda about unelected officials.  

After careful reconsideration, I have decided to stick with my plan to vote Leave because of the fact that we are a very popular destination for folk to come and work - far more popular than other countries are for us to go and work.  With the exception of France, there are more EU citizens in the UK than vice-versa :- http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354  Massively so in some cases - e.g. 883,000 Poles in the UK vs 35,000 Brits in Poland etc.

This applies to every country in the EU (bar the French) - everyone seems to be flocking here to work, and that can only have one outcome on wages.

Comparing expats country-by-country is irrelevant, really - and if you wanted to go down that route, you could just as easily talk about the 790,000 British citizens in Spain thanks to the free travel across EU borders, versus the 50k Spaniards in Britain.

Yeah, but to be fair most of those Brits are crims.

Modulus_Amps

digitalscream said:

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

I think that sounds good on paper, but in practice we act more out than in, so are less likely to garner support we need to stop votes going through or to push the ones we do want through.

digitalscream

Modulus_Amps said:

digitalscream said:

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

I think that sounds good on paper, but in practice we act more out than in, so are less likely to garner support we need to stop votes going through or to push the ones we do want through.

I'm inclined to agree - if we sent really capable negotiators to the table, who can act more out of a common goal than self-interest, we might get somewhere. In reality, the people we send are effectively the also-rans.

quarky

No, I think you undersell their power, and the way it has increased over the past few years.